Lets talk about Nanoseers abilities. Nanoseer General

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  • AyaAya Posts: 14Member
    Except it isn't. Did you actually read all the changes? Nanoseer just got buffed amazingly. Frenzy every 30s even while off balance? Speedup having a .40 cast time? Freeze and limbdrain doing amazing damage even without frenzy buff? This is so awesome.  :3
    NykaraRonin
  • AyaAya Posts: 14Member
    How about playing the game and trying the new changes for more than 10 seconds before lamenting about how dreadful everything is? (By the way, it's not dreadful at all)

    If you can use frenzy, use it, if not, don't. It's not even hard.
    NykaraRoninSairys
  • PoetPoet Posts: 58Member ✭✭
    Yeah, this is huge buff. I'm loving it so far. Thanks @Garryn
    [Cassandra]: Poet will be unsurprised to learn that she has unread news.
    NykaraRonin
  • AristaArista Posts: 59Member ✭✭
    Free frenzy sounds awesome.

    I honestly never liked bashing with channels so suffocate change is meaningless to me.
    NykaraMatlkaelPoet
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23
    Ran the numbers:

    Fastest TTK seems to be the Traveller-Speedup route, and furthermore, it works with either a Techcraft build or a Psyche build.

    Techcraft route is speedup -> multistrike -> freeze -> swarm, re-up freeze when it fades.

    Psyche route is speedup -> pointzero -> freeze to death.

    Obviously, repair and interrupt (eyestrike) as needed.

    edit:

    The Conqueror-Frenzy route is actually a bit faster on the TTK, but the 30s cooldown means it's unreliable (and then you'd have to switch back to the Traveller-Speedup route, anyway).
    itsa Mereas!
    WuffNykara
  • AkesaAkesa Posts: 1Member
    The updates comment tersely stated that Suffocate is still be usable in PvE, but I currently do not understand how to use it well anymore. While the damage with freeze stacks up is indeed nicer than freeze stacks alone, manipulating that + channeled + cooldown has thus far resulted in typically just 1 pulse of it going out in my attempts to use it.

    That said, revised Frenzy + Freeze is loverly and if it came down to trading Suffocate for it I'll take the trade.
    Wuff
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    Yeah, suffocate is now notably worse for hunting, @Akesa
    . I suggest going the 'regular' on-balance routes according to my post above yours.  ;)
    itsa Mereas!
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    Just a quick theorycrafting, but vaguely mapping it out in excel with the CD on frenzy vs the swap CD it seems like you could rotate through Empyreals while bashing if you're hitting groups?


    There's points where you can swap to Sunderer to stack the 5% nanite damage increase with Frenzy, while having time to get back to Conqueror before the next frenzy is available. Then rotating through Traveller if you want to maintain Speedup.
    (Working with the CDs of Frenzy 30s, Swap 20s, and Speedup ~110s)

    Need to actually test it but it seems like you'd have frenzy up as much as possible, speedup with close to 100% up-time, and in the gaps where you're not doing something else you have the damage buff that should also buff every other Frenzy. (There's a point in this timeline where you get two in a row)
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    Sunderer would be a bit useless if you're on the Psyche build (going for the pure Freeze route), but yes, you can be Fancy and rotate a lot between the Empyreals to maximise the balance-free cooldowns.
    itsa Mereas!
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't necessarily think it's that Fancy. It's just managing your oGCDs and stance dancing to create windows where you're at peak, which is pretty common in MMOs.

    Swapping Sunderer when it wouldn't negatively affect you (i.e in windows between re-using frenzy and speed up) would be a DPS increase and not doing so would mean doing less damage overall.

    You could go further and really Fancy potentially by making sure you align your attacks with the windows. Setting up delay, freeze, and multistrike around the window to do as much damage as possible when you move into it.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
    ZootPoet
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25
    Trying out the opener of...

    Speedup > Swap conqueror > delay swarm > multistrike > freeze > (offbal) frenzy | swap sunderer > swarm > swarm > swarm  (this is just testing so waiting for the initial CDs to be ready so I can go straight into the sunderer window)

    Sunderer, Freeze, and Frenzy are all up at the point that I start doing nanite damage. The main issue I hit was the sanity drain unfortunately, might be a way around that?
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I don't combo all the empyreals at once because of the sanity drain.

    What I do is have Traveller/Speedup as my primary. I go on my merry way killing things, then move onto the next room.

    If, when I move to the next room, speedup is still on cooldown, I then swap Conqueror/Frenzy and then peacefully kill things.

    I then move on to the next room, and if by then speedup is on cooldown, I swap back to Traveller/Speedup.

    I use the Psyche build (so no need to Sunderer for nanite damage), and Traveller/Speedup is primary because Speedup tends to last longer than Frenzy (and therefore, less intensive on the sanity). 1 minute (speedup) vs 15 seconds (frenzy).
    itsa Mereas!
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    I mean, I haven't found a use for Architect and Progenitor yet :P

    Looks like sanity is enough to carry through to getting back to conqueror after refreshing speedup the first time.
    Could go Progenitor for the boosted sanity regen, then when swaps up efficiency | swap conqueror | frenzy? :D
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    NANO CHARGE -> CHANNEL ARCHITECT -> MINIATURISATION/PROTECT/INTERCEPT. They'll each use up less nanites than they normally would.  5.50M vs 4.40M used up.

    Also, Invisibility is great to move past aggressive mobs (especially when you're indoors and can't use levitate). Excellent for quests!

    Progenitor/Negation is wonderful for turtling. Repair -> Negation -> Negation -> Repair. And if you don't want to spend nanites to use Eyestrike, Negation is a great alternative, too (it'll eat the big hit).
    itsa Mereas!
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    Sorry, meant in that rotation not in general.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • SyltSylt Posts: 14Member ✭✭
    Does anyone else have an issue where the forums eat a comment if you try and make a minor edit? Like it needs to be approved.

    Anyway, I did some more number testing again, each test was done on the same mob and this is for those who don't want to, or cannot, swap between Emps.

    Weapons (Near Identical Power)
    -------------------------------< Used weapons >--------------------------------
    Type         ID      Name                                Power   Level   Health
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    goggles      109024  a Vigilant 6-X goggles              7890    60         87%
    gauntlet     112979  a Kinesics PTX-G-6a gauntlet        7953    60         89%
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Stats Spread
    -------------------------------< Player stats >--------------------------------
    Stat            Base      Assigned  Rewards   Total     Effective
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Psyche          150       120       0         270       235
    Techcraft       150       190       0         340       270
    Lifeforce       150       90        0         240       220
    Evasion         150       0         0         150       150
    Regen           150       50        0         200       200
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Route: Speedup / Point Zero / Multi / Freeze to death / NO HEALING
    Result: Our target died in 23.46 seconds at 134.9 dps!

    Route: Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm to death / NO HEALING
    Result: Our target died in 21.08 seconds at 143.2 dps!

    Stats MAX Psyche
    -------------------------------< Player stats >--------------------------------
    Stat            Base      Assigned  Rewards   Total     Effective
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Psyche          150       250       0         400       300
    Techcraft       150       100       0         250       225
    Lifeforce       150       50        0         200       200
    Evasion         150       0         0         150       150
    Regen           150       50        0         200       200
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Route: Speedup / Void Zero / Freeze to death / NO HEALING
    Result: Our target died in 20.02 seconds at 143.0 dps!

    Stats MAX Techcraft
    -------------------------------< Player stats >--------------------------------
    Stat            Base      Assigned  Rewards   Total     Effective
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Psyche          150       100       0         250       225
    Techcraft       150       250       0         400       300
    Lifeforce       150       50        0         200       200
    Evasion         150       0         0         150       150
    Regen           150       50        0         200       200
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Route: Speedup / Multi / Freeze / Swarm to death
    Result: Our target died in 20.69 seconds at 149.5 dps!

    TL;DR - You shave a few seconds with MAX Techcraft, however I imagine a MAX Psyche and freeze route would be better if you're killing things a fair bit higher than yourself due to the way freeze damage keeps growing with the stacks now.

    I'll run some numbers with Emp swapping and suffocate a little later.
  • RocketCatRocketCat Posts: 51Member ✭✭
    Matlkael said:
    NANO CHARGE -> CHANNEL ARCHITECT -> MINIATURISATION/PROTECT/INTERCEPT. They'll each use up less nanites than they normally would.  5.50M vs 4.40M used up.

    Oh wow, I feel like an idiot for not doing this before. Thanks for the tip!

    Regarding Intercept, is there really any need for it while bashing?

    Regarding free Frenzy... I'm now on a diet of SPEEDUP > (swap and frenzy off cooldown and Sanity > 40%?) >SWAP CONQUEROR|FRENZY > etc... You may swap again > SWAP TRAVELLER. Easy.
  • MarunaMaruna Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭
    There's some mobs that do a fair amount of SS damage with their attacks. Better to just bash an area and see what you're getting hit with the most, before turning intercept on.
    Soza
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    Alright, Upon reaching level 75 and testing quite profusely. Here are my findings. (Specifically for 1v1)

    Mind killpath is slower than any killpath of any other class. You cannot get them to 25% mind and 6 mental afflictions unless they are simply not attacking you. You will lose every fight you attempt to use this in.

    Wetwiring killpath has the same problem as Mind, You are just too slow. You cant even target this subsystem directly and likely before you even got close the person you are fighting will have damaged you out, or just simply beat you in the subsys race.

    Freeze killpath, suprisingly this is your best option You will either pressure them out with damage, or will shatter them with frozen stacks.

    I will note 100% It is almost impossible to beat any class without the use of speedup. Honestly if you want to win against nanoseer and they use speedup just change rooms. if they chase you you win they dont have speedup, if they dont you win they lost their pressure on you.

    by this point you are probably wondering why I have come to these conclusions.

    1.) Mind afflictions for nano doing more subsys damage than other classes attacking is good. but when you put it against the pressure of other classes being able to outpace you bc they dont have to class heal and the fact that it takes 6 balances to actually stick an affliction (Not including if you delay) you lose the affliction buildup because you have to classheal.

    Possible fix: (Not sure here tbh)

    2.) If you were to try and go for a Wetwiring killpath we have no way to offensively build both mind and sensory at the same time to achieve this. If you drop a delayed confound, and then mindswap into a confound, then start focusing sensory. we have no way to tell what they cure. if they cure those mind affs and you miss even 1 tick of mindswap subsys damage you get pushed so far behind.

    Possible fix: have envelop tell us what affs are cured. If not the exact aff, even just (Mind aff cured) or (Sensory aff cured) or even (Freeze cured)

    3.) Freeze path I cant complain too much here. If you fight someone in speedup, you will outright beat them. Ofc the downside is that if you arent fighting in speedup you just kinda flop and do nothing. 

    Possible fix: make it not so reliant on speedup.

    4.) sluggish, echoing, and distract will ultimately just slow you down as they require a balance, have a chance to be instantly cured and also do less subsys damage than just eyestrike/confound. Also for sluggish and distract your mindswap can and will swap these afflictions in and out as it pleases.

    5.) rattle. good luck ever getting this. and if you do, likely their out of efficacy anyway or you arent on freezepath so you dont need to reduce their healing. but in group combat could be very good.
    6.) for some reason we are the only class that has our class resources being a downside. we run out of nanites easily with even just a mediocre amount of buffs applied to us as well as our buffs can be stripped off. Our other resource that we have to use Sanity, if we use to frequently we drive ourselves into madness and kill ourselves. for those that dont know after the very small amount of buffs that are required just for combat (Including buffing in architect so we can get the most) you are reserving .5 off of half your total. or simple terms 45.5% of your amount. This is a huge crutch as each attack takes anywhere from 5-10%

    TLDR: alot of our class feels like its hindering its self rather than helping or making itself reliant on certain aspects that are easily countered.

    As always these are just my opinions and im glad to entertain those of others.
    Zoot
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 264Member ✭✭✭
    Could we add limbdrain information to envelop and/or nano analyze? 
    itsa Mereas!
  • DariosDarios Posts: 52Member ✭✭
    I'm not sure where you are getting 6 balances to stick 1 mental affliction from, at the absolute worst case scenario its 3 balances per affliction, 2 balances under speedup. Not considering delay at all.

    0.0 Confound
    0.0 WW Cured
    3.0 Confound
    5.0 WW Cured
    6.0 Confound
    Affliction Stuck.

    0.0 Confound
    0.0 WW Cured
    2.4 Confound
    Affliction stuck.

    Its probably not worth dropping speedup at the start of a fight if you're having issues being outdamaged, it boosts your opponents dps by 20% and doesn't effect your class heal cooldown. Dropping it once their mind system is below 25%, if they don't already have the mentals to mindmelt, seems like the best idea.

    I'm honestly not quite sure where you're having issues with mindmelt, if anything the afflictions are the worst part and if someone is so intent on playing defensive constantly to keep themselves below the 2 extra afflictions needed, they're going to be suffering heavy feedback and you'll be able to breakdown soon. That seems like the biggest purpose of breakdown, its a backup that puts a timer on your foe if they decide to never push their own offense and continually avoid afflictions.

    The 0.5% lower system damage on sluggish and distract is probably fine, they're extremely potent afflictions and losing half a percent of subsystem damage for the decent chance it will at least stick for a few balances (possibly a lot more) more then makes up for it.

    You don't need it to stick for too long before it becomes theoretically worth it, not to mention the affliction requirements on the skills means you'll already have buffer afflictions on your target. Feels kind of like airshot for BEASTs, if the affliction is cured right away then its pretty much a wasted balance that does no damage, but most times you'll get it to stick long enough to make it worth it.
    Nykara
  • kamyrkamyr Posts: 36Member
    Freeze stuff - I kind of wish they'd swap the subsystem to muscular, increase the base shatter stacks, and apply a scaling reduction to the stacks with muscular damage. Ex 20 stacks to start, -2 per 10% muscular damage.

    That gets the 'problem' of fast-stacking in groups to be less of an issue, and the method overall has a better and more versatile 1v1 long-term with the muscular focus and option for hitting ww subsys from both directions (albeit with less subsys damage than the pure mental route).

    It'd also make it less of a pain to do a limbdrain instead of a confound if you're low on nanites (possible bugginess of the damaged limbs aside).

    Then there could be an option for some freeze stack boosters elsewhere *cough nanotech* once it's got a mix of requirements aside from the sloooow stack with extra fading.


  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    Darios said:
    <Snip>
    In your iteration you arent taking into account that as a nanoseer we have to use repair to heal after every 3 or so balances, where while we are pushing for afflictions, yes we are doing more subsys damage but they dont ever have to spend a blance to classheal.
    Zoot
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    balance time, confound#/H=Heal (This isnt assuming that you are using mindswap for maximum value)
    3,1-6,2-9,3-12,H-15,4-18,5-21,6-24,H

    time, current affliction count (time starts at 3 bc thats when the first aff is applied as well as healed)
    3,0-6,1-8,0-9,1-12,1-13,0-15,1-18,0-21,0-23,0

    At 18s your balances line back up and you never actually apply any afflictions. This is assuming that you only confound and Heal ofc. If you toss mindswap in you -1 more aff every time that you activate mindswap rather than using confound. If you delay a confound to start, you bring it up to 2 and can keep 1 on constantly just by confound/healing. but if you throw in mindswap you lose that 1. This is how we are so reliant on speedup.
    Zoot
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    That being said there are things we can do that help with this problem, The best ordering to start a fight that I have found is, delay confound, roomdrain, mindswap, confound. roomdrain has the possibility to net you a few extra affs if their system decides to heal freeze instead of a mind aff. but does nothing if it decides to heal mind aff anyway.
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