Lets talk about Nanoseers abilities. Nanoseer General

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  • DariosDarios Posts: 52Member ✭✭
    The only time affliction count is actually vital to your instakill is after they've been pushed below 25%, you should have saved yourself enough of a health buffer (And if you heal every 10s, and have some awareness around enemy damage strategies you should easily have) that you can spend 10s sticking the 2 affs you need to mindmelt. If you're wasting balance healing at that point you're just making a mistake. Also you shouldn't be counting balance at 3.1s, if you use queuing you wont have to account for latency.

    This is also ignoring that the last 25% (after they're below 50%) you're at a huge advantage with forgetfulness hinder. 

    Really the only huge weakness Nano has is that their mind path doesnt deal health damage, and its there for a reason. No class can have the best of everything, and Nano has tons of utility and defense to offset this.
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    Darios said:
    The only time affliction count is actually vital to your instakill is after they've been pushed below 25%, you should have saved yourself enough of a health buffer (And if you heal every 10s, and have some awareness around enemy damage strategies you should easily have) that you can spend 10s sticking the 2 affs you need to mindmelt. If you're wasting balance healing at that point you're just making a mistake. Also you shouldn't be counting balance at 3.1s, if you use queuing you wont have to account for latency.

    This is also ignoring that the last 25% (after they're below 50%) you're at a huge advantage with forgetfulness hinder. 

    Really the only huge weakness Nano has is that their mind path doesnt deal health damage, and its there for a reason. No class can have the best of everything, and Nano has tons of utility and defense to offset this.
    I dont think you have ever played a nanoseer with the way that you think the only downside is that it doesnt do health damage. You are completely neglecting about 50% of the tree by not being able to stack afflictions. Afflictions like sluggish, and distract that have inherent requirement for having other afflictions just to use them. The point im making is that the mind damage kill path loses out to almost any other class who can pressure subsys, aff, and health all at the same time. If you dont do damage on mind killpath you literally just lose 1 balance every 4 balances as they dont have to waste that balance. And the pressure they pose is rather inconsequential with the fact that seer can no longer pax/wwregen as it takes 12s rather than 10 now.
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    this isnt even taking into account the fact that mindswap can swap those hard to apply afflictions
  • ZootZoot Posts: 14Member
    I agree with much of what was said by Soza. Beyond being reliant on speedup, the class is also hindered by the need for setup. Requiring 6+ seconds of setup with cooldown skills against a non-cooldown crash makes combat trivially easy to avoid and it is also why subsystems are the current de rigueur method of pressure application within the game currently. People can simple run around when damaged or afflicted here. Other IREs have methods of pinning down their opponents. Most classes here do not.
  • ZhulkarnZhulkarn Posts: 58Member ✭✭
    Groundfreeze has a decent rate of making people prone, and if they levitate there is pull. Furthermore if someone's first reaction is to get away from you it is not wrong they actually get away. 

    On chivalric duels and arena battles people can enforce house rules among themselves. 

    Also in my opinion area/combat flow control value of nanoseer in group settings makes up for their lack of damage pressure within pure mindmelt path. But it is partially a subjective opinion for that I enjoy skills messing with crowds.
  • ZootZoot Posts: 14Member
    Zhulkarn said:
    Groundfreeze has a decent rate of making people prone, and if they levitate there is pull. Furthermore if someone's first reaction is to get away from you it is not wrong they actually get away. 

    On chivalric duels and arena battles people can enforce house rules among themselves. 

    Also in my opinion area/combat flow control value of nanoseer in group settings makes up for their lack of damage pressure within pure mindmelt path. But it is partially a subjective opinion for that I enjoy skills messing with crowds.
    Groundfreeze in no way stops crash which was the skill mentioned in my reply.
  • ZhulkarnZhulkarn Posts: 58Member ✭✭
    My bad, I did not tested it on crash situation but always thought that was the intention of the skill when it was making me prone on movement at an acceptable rate.

    I would say Evasion stat could have more use if it was to be used for such occasions. Crash occurs, groundfreeze is in the room, check happens against the stat: Prone or not prone. Just a wild side idea. 
    Zoot
  • RocketCatRocketCat Posts: 51Member ✭✭
    And the pressure they pose is rather inconsequential with the fact that seer can no longer pax/wwregen as it takes 12s rather than 10 now.
    ???ww regen is still 10 seconds?

    14:46:21.059 You instruct your wetwiring to start repairing all your subsystems, then stand entirely still. Any movement would disrupt the process.
    14:46:21.059 [Mindsim]: Wetwiring regeneration starting.
    14:46:31.715 
    14:46:31.715 Your skin tingles as the nanobots in your wetwiring whirl around, repairing the damage done to your systems.
    14:46:31.715 [Wetwiring]: Muscular system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 100.00%.
    14:46:31.715 [Wetwiring]: Internal system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 100.00%.
    14:46:31.715 [Wetwiring]: Sensory system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 100.00%.
    14:46:31.715 [Wetwiring]: Mind system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 100.00%.
    14:46:31.715 [Wetwiring]: Wetwiring system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 100.00%.
    14:46:31.715 [Mindsim]: Wetwiring regeneration completed.
    14:46:31.715 Your wetwiring resumes its normal operation as your subsystems are fully healed.

  • DariosDarios Posts: 52Member ✭✭
    edited February 8
    Soza said:
    Darios said:
    The only time affliction count is actually vital to your instakill is after they've been pushed below 25%, you should have saved yourself enough of a health buffer (And if you heal every 10s, and have some awareness around enemy damage strategies you should easily have) that you can spend 10s sticking the 2 affs you need to mindmelt. If you're wasting balance healing at that point you're just making a mistake. Also you shouldn't be counting balance at 3.1s, if you use queuing you wont have to account for latency.

    This is also ignoring that the last 25% (after they're below 50%) you're at a huge advantage with forgetfulness hinder. 

    Really the only huge weakness Nano has is that their mind path doesnt deal health damage, and its there for a reason. No class can have the best of everything, and Nano has tons of utility and defense to offset this.
    I dont think you have ever played a nanoseer with the way that you think the only downside is that it doesnt do health damage. You are completely neglecting about 50% of the tree by not being able to stack afflictions. Afflictions like sluggish, and distract that have inherent requirement for having other afflictions just to use them. The point im making is that the mind damage kill path loses out to almost any other class who can pressure subsys, aff, and health all at the same time. If you dont do damage on mind killpath you literally just lose 1 balance every 4 balances as they dont have to waste that balance. And the pressure they pose is rather inconsequential with the fact that seer can no longer pax/wwregen as it takes 12s rather than 10 now.
    You're clearly not understanding me so I'll try to break it down even further. 

    Combat in Starmourn is incredibly long, at least in comparison to typical IRE combat, and my experience so far is that it can, for the most part, be broken down into different "phases." The start of the fight all both sides will be doing is focusing on one, sometimes two, subsystems and forcing the other person to burn their efficacy and mend to avoid the subsystem afflictions.

    You have plenty, and I mean -plenty- of time to stack afflictions because you still need to push their mind system below 25% before you can kill them, the use of delay should allow you to easily stick the one affliction needed to take advantage of mindswap. As I said earlier, stacking any more than 1 affliction is not -vital- to your gameplan when your initial goal is only to damage their subsystems, this is why you shouldn't be dropping speedup until you're done with the subsystem or unless you're going for freeze. Sluggish and distract will come as the fight progresses, unless your enemy decides they want to play defensive to avoid them, in which case they are slowing their offense.

    Nanoseers have excellent resistances, 10% reduction to system damage (which is crazy, this slows someones offense down significantly), faster crashing, essentially an on-demand 15% to every subsystem heal (up to way more with an artie) and a load of other defensive utility. Let alone the fact that mind system is arguably the best system to damage. We saw early on how ridiculous mind system hinder was alongside damage with Scoundrel.

    I'm not at all saying changes do not need to be made, this is a beta and balance is always changing. Just pointing out, in my experience anyone who says "You won't ever kill anyone and will lose every fight if you try" are generally just bad, or are fighting better combatants and blaming it on their class.
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    edited February 8
    @Darios
    First off, If you think I'm here complaining because I think the class is garbage you are completely wrong. I have stood toe to toe with quite a few of the top combatants and also beat them quite frequently. I have actually only ever seen YOU fighting people who were 15 levels or more lower than yourself. That aside. we will go back to the original topic.

    1.) If A minute and under is an incredibly long fight to you, then you are just dead wrong. I don't know if I can break it down any further for you. so lets go over the things you think you know what you are talking about but have no idea.

    2.)10% resistance to "ONE" Subsys unless you want to use another balance to change it, (Which is good in a lot of circumstances) but also putting you down another balance is bad. The fact that if you don't change it in *Architect* will mean even more of your nanites are eaten up. so if you want to change it, waste two balances or hope you don't need to crash anytime soon so you can waste swap's about 1/4th fight cooldown to change to Architect.

    3.) It really seems that you dont understand how to apply pressure for one, simply put: If I am attacking you I should be applying pressure. If I am defending, my pressure should stop, and weaken yours or attempt to hold on long enough to put you back into the fight.

    4.) Your thought of "Faster crashing" comes with an empyreal that if we channel during the fight we run out of nanites using. I 100% agree we do have quite a bit of defensive utility though.

    As you have brought scoundrel into this I will note that after a while of testing, I believe that scoundrel is just better at killing via mindsubsys.

    I honestly don't think you have even read the nanoseer abilities which would make sense as you seem to only have an idea of what they generally do and not how they actually work or any of the requirements for any of them.

    I will end by reinforcing the statment that without speedup their are only two ways to kill another player with any of the killpaths. 1.) You spend about two hours crashing in and out constantly until you have worn down efficacy 2.) they are just bad. 
  • DariosDarios Posts: 52Member ✭✭
    Soza said:
    @Darios
    First off, If you think I'm here complaining because I think the class is garbage you are completely wrong. I have stood toe to toe with quite a few of the top combatants and also beat them quite frequently. I have actually only ever seen YOU fighting people who were 15 levels or more lower than yourself. That aside. we will go back to the original topic.
    Pretty clear you haven't been around when I'm fighting then, which should be pretty obvious since I've never seen you in the arena. The people below my level I normally fight, are Achaeans that I chat with on Discord all the time and want to explore this combat system, I'm not gonna avoid the arena with a friend just because they haven't spent as long bashing as I have. 

    1.) If A minute and under is an incredibly long fight to you, then you are just dead wrong. I don't know if I can break it down any further for you. so lets go over the things you think you know what you are talking about but have no idea.
    I'm going to assume you haven't played any other IRE's where the most optimistic TTK for affliction classes can be 10-12s. Also if your fights are under a minute long, you're doing something wrong and dying way too fast. Unless you're maybe fighting Scoundrel and not mending.

    2.)10% resistance to "ONE" Subsys unless you want to use another balance to change it, (Which is good in a lot of circumstances) but also putting you down another balance is bad. The fact that if you don't change it in *Architect* will mean even more of your nanites are eaten up. so if you want to change it, waste two balances or hope you don't need to crash anytime soon so you can waste swap's about 1/4th fight cooldown to change to Architect.
    You shouldn't need to switch it during combat, look at the class you're fighting and put it on their highest required system. Muscular for BEASTs, Internal (or Muscular but probably Internal) for Furies, Mind for Nanoseers, Internal for Scoundrels and Muscular for Engineers (This is probably the only class that can easily change routes, but not while EM is still broken). Honestly, this skill alone makes up for 5-6 balances spent healing when your opponent isn't. 

    3.) It really seems that you dont understand how to apply pressure for one, simply put: If I am attacking you I should be applying pressure. If I am defending, my pressure should stop, and weaken yours or attempt to hold on long enough to put you back into the fight. 
    I don't even know what to say to this, considering you're the one complaining about not being able to apply pressure. If you think Nano attacks aren't applying pressure, I'm not even sure I should waste time trying to help.

    4.) Your thought of "Faster crashing" comes with an empyreal that if we channel during the fight we run out of nanites using. I 100% agree we do have quite a bit of defensive utility though.
    Using such blanket statements about skills does nothing but ignore the nuance of using them. But I'm glad you agree with the crazy amount of defensive utility Nano has access too. 

    As you have brought scoundrel into this I will note that after a while of testing, I believe that scoundrel is just better at killing via mindsubsys.
    You know, maybe. But if anything thats just because Scoundrel system damage is absolutely insane.

    I honestly don't think you have even read the nanoseer abilities which would make sense as you seem to only have an idea of what they generally do and not how they actually work or any of the requirements for any of them.
    You're starting to sound like Awruun, which is not a compliment. I've just been under the assumption you also know what they do, but if not I don't mind explaining. You've offered no constructive solutions to this path, other then "there is no way to kill someone with Mindmelt unless they stand there doing nothing" which is simply not true. Perhaps you can be more specific on where exactly you're struggling, your first post complains about sticking the afflictions needed to kill, which should not be the struggle now that you can easily drop speedup post system damage.

    I will end by reinforcing the statment that without speedup their are only two ways to kill another player with any of the killpaths. 1.) You spend about two hours crashing in and out constantly until you have worn down efficacy 2.) they are just bad. 
    And I'll end with this, speedup throughout the entire fight is usually going to bite you in the ass more then benefit you. You drop it against a BEAST, you'll eat more staggering procs and more damage per second, you drop it against a Scoundrel you'll eat more reload skills and more damage per second, drop against a Fury and you'll get stacked with more afflictions to push their insta faster, they'll get to unstoppable faster, and you'll eat more damage per second. Also, not to stoke the fire more, I don't think the freeze path is very good. Health damage is so much easier to heal then system, and its not hard to watch your freeze stacks and know when you need to head for the hills.

    Zoot
  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    Darios said:
    Soza said:
    Pretty clear you haven't been around when I'm fighting then, which should be pretty obvious since I've never seen you in the arena. The people below my level I normally fight, are Achaeans that I chat with on Discord all the time and want to explore this combat system, I'm not gonna avoid the arena with a friend just because they haven't spent as long bashing as I have. 
    This is likely the case for both of us, I haven't seen you dueling, And you also haven't seen me. So I'd like you to list off a few good combatants in your opinion, and if I haven't fought them yet Ill get around to it, If I have ill give you a log.

    I'm going to assume you haven't played any other IRE's where the most optimistic TTK for affliction classes can be 10-12s. Also if your fights are under a minute long, you're doing something wrong and dying way too fast. Unless you're maybe fighting Scoundrel and not mending.
    I've not played any MUD's other than low end Achaea with friends and I played a bard with not so many artifacts so my TTK wasnt 10-12s, Either way I only played for a few months and didn't get into the competitve fights.

    You shouldn't need to switch it during combat, look at the class you're fighting and put it on their highest required system. Muscular for BEASTs, Internal (or Muscular but probably Internal) for Furies, Mind for Nanoseers, Internal for Scoundrels and Muscular for Engineers (This is probably the only class that can easily change routes, but not while EM is still broken). Honestly, this skill alone makes up for 5-6 balances spent healing when your opponent isn't. 
     Your statement was,  "Nanoseers have excellent resistances, 10% reduction to system damage" My comment was stating that it only affects 1 subsys unless changing in the middle of the fight, which against furies can be good as they will focus muscular first, and internal after. They have a rather hard time applying internal subsys. but it seems starting on muscular makes it easier to properly split their subsys evenly. (They do muscular damage easier)

    I don't even know what to say to this, considering you're the one complaining about not being able to apply pressure. If you think Nano attacks aren't applying pressure, I'm not even sure I should waste time trying to help.
    I don't think they don't apply pressure. Just that the pressure they apply isn't as effective as pressure that is applied by other classes.

    Using such blanket statements about skills does nothing but ignore the nuance of using them. But I'm glad you agree with the crazy amount of defensive utility Nano has access too.
    It wasn't a blanket statement, It was me informing you that this passive part of "Traveller" is so amazing, but it has so many downsides and is hard to stay in when you really need it.

    You know, maybe. But if anything thats just because Scoundrel system damage is absolutely insane.
    I agree with you, I don't think that they are too strong, Just need to be more in line with other classes. You definitely can beat a scoundrel Just they will beat your systems into the ground quite quickly.

    You're starting to sound like Awruun, which is not a compliment. I've just been under the assumption you also know what they do, but if not I don't mind explaining. You've offered no constructive solutions to this path, other then "there is no way to kill someone with Mindmelt unless they stand there doing nothing" which is simply not true. Perhaps you can be more specific on where exactly you're struggling, your first post complains about sticking the afflictions needed to kill, which should not be the struggle now that you can easily drop speedup post system damage.
    I do not ever intend to sound like Awruun, I have spent a profuse amount of time playing, dueling, and generally learning the nanoseer class in general I have well put in my time to get the opinions I have. The problem isnt so much sticking the afflictions to kill, as sticking them so you can make use of the other mind abilities and not just spam confound. Also ill reiterate dropping speedup affects the room, not the characters in it. So just crash 1 room away and speedup does nothing.

    And I'll end with this, speedup throughout the entire fight is usually going to bite you in the ass more then benefit you. You drop it against a BEAST, you'll eat more staggering procs and more damage per second, you drop it against a Scoundrel you'll eat more reload skills and more damage per second, drop against a Fury and you'll get stacked with more afflictions to push their insta faster, they'll get to unstoppable faster, and you'll eat more damage per second. Also, not to stoke the fire more, I don't think the freeze path is very good. Health damage is so much easier to heal then system, and its not hard to watch your freeze stacks and know when you need to head for the hills.
    I have only ever had speedup make the fight go in my favor, the problem being that if they leave the speedup, the kill pressure I was applying while in it dwindles.


  • SozaSoza Posts: 71Member ✭✭
    @Darios I have tested a bit more and its not as unachievable as I made it sound in the first post. Although some of the other methods may be easier, and alot of functionality of other abilities arent really as needed when you can just spam confound.
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