Cosmpiercers: Problems and an Ambitious Proposal

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  • CubeyCubey Posts: 154Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18
    Quick and dirty idea that is probably really hard to implement and also totally ripping off Lusternia's villages:
    Every once in a while there's an emergency at a cosmpiercer because it comes under attack by Ishvana - possibly some kind of advance warning as folks get a message "Ishvana were seen moving towards <whatever>" several ingame days in advance? When a piercer's under attack, its ownership resets and it's up to players to fight the invaders.
    When there's an invasion, there's no guards but ishvana mobs and ships spawn around and in the cosmpiercer (no generators either). Killing mobs gives little points to your faction. Killing ships gives more. Hacking control points gives most. The players' goal is to amass enough points to reach a threshold and flip the cosmpiercer to their org's control. If nobody manages to do that in alotted time then it stays under ishvana control until it's ready to be flipped again.
    When there's an invasion, the cosmpiercer counts as a safe zone which means people who die get reduced cloning costs like if they were on their org's turf. This includes the 3x3 space area around the piercer too. Ships that get blown up need their insurance renewed (but it costs peanuts so no one cares) but don't lose their cargo so no 5k+ worth of supplies lost per death. Also to speed up travel, Y'saari allow players to directly warp ships into attacked cosmpiercer territory from any voidgate at no/vastly reduced cost. Course there's no voidgate on the other side so their ship gets moved to a random place in the 3x3 area.
    Lastly, when a piercer gets flipped it stays under the org's control until it's under attack again BUT other orgs can weaken it so ishvana invade it faster. Generators are back up but you can dock at the piercer even when they're around - if you survive the generators ripping you to shreds. Blowing up generators weakens the piercer most, otherwise it's killing guards and hacking control points as usual. Also the piercer counts as safe territory for the owner.
    Here's my tl;dr.
    Nuzir
  • RhindaraRhindara Posts: 5Member
    Bumping this thread because we could really use some sort of mechanic where owned cosmpiercers return to the Ishvana after x number of days. When there's a lapse in conflict, being able to go beat up an npc faction gives players *something* to do. I would lock the lost cosmpiercer(s) for 24h, and optionally allow the lock only to affect the previous owning org, so that other orgs who maybe aren't always equipped to deal with player defense (especially on higher-leveled cosmpiercers) have an opportunity to attack Ishvana-held ones.
    Vaughn
  • RocketCatRocketCat Posts: 48Member ✭✭
    Rhindara said:
    Bumping this thread because we could really use some sort of mechanic where owned cosmpiercers return to the Ishvana after x number of days. When there's a lapse in conflict, being able to go beat up an npc faction gives players *something* to do. I would lock the lost cosmpiercer(s) for 24h, and optionally allow the lock only to affect the previous owning org, so that other orgs who maybe aren't always equipped to deal with player defense (especially on higher-leveled cosmpiercers) have an opportunity to attack Ishvana-held ones.
    I disagree. Having Ishvana take it for free without the faction having an opportunity to defend would be a negative play experience. Cosmpiercers are very time-consuming and motivating a group to claim them can be hard. If there were some such mechanic, it should involve some opportunity for the defending faction to hold the Ishvana back. Such a mechanic should also take its sweet time unless Cosmpiercer rewards are adjusted... it can take a two weeks to a month for a Cosmpiercer to pay for itself just in terms of ammo costs!

    But all of this I think would be beside the point. Cosmpiercers were billed as the the full interfactional PvE & PvP group conflict experience! Such a mechanic would diminish that possibility. Ishvana I'm sure can have a million other ways to provide the Sector with an existential threat without resetting our hard-earned Cosmpiercers and deterring interfactional conflict.
    Zhulkarn
  • RhindaraRhindara Posts: 5Member
    I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to stop the Ishvana (or any other NPC faction) from reclaiming cosmpiercers, and I'm fully aware of how they're difficult to organize for and expensive to take. The only real reward you get is from fighting other players, (INRs, junk they forgot to sell, ship cargo (even if you land on a cosmpiercer and never fight, if your side loses your ship gets ejected and the owning org's generators turn on the pilotless ships)), because as mentioned before, the income from cosmpiercers takes weeks to months to matter. 

    However, because of the potentially high cost in trying to take a high level cosmpiercer from another org (that were, in all cases right now, taken from the Ishvana with no player defenders), it's very unlikely to see those cosmpiercers change hands. The rewards already aren't worth it, and so we're essentially fighting for something to do. If no one is willing to fight over it, we have nothing to do.

    Obviously, there are a multitude of underlying problems and they're not going to magically get fixed by having cosmpiercer control shaken up by PvE means, but when there is very little to no PvP to speak of, the system just exists and no one has anything to do. 
  • KerekKerek Posts: 6Member
    Instead of having control automatically returned to Ishvana,  make the rewards for capturing a cosmpiercer progressively get better as time progresses. An "attunement" factor, if you will, that starts at 1 when a cosmpiercer is first captured that progresses up to 10 with each level being a multiplier.

    Doing this would require adjusting the rewards, but I think adding scaling rewards for capturing would encourage aggression.

    I also think it's important that the holding faction should NOT gain any significant mechanical advantage for being fully attuned, at least not in a way that introduces a snowball effect. Win-more mechanics suck because they ultimately introduce situations that feel hopeless if power shifts too far in one direction (see beacons in Imperian).

    That said, I think some sort of benefit is justified to discourage factions from waiting until full attunement to reap the biggest reward. Maybe introduce a border-influence mechanic where each point of cosmpiercer attunement allows a faction's borders to expand.


    Rhindara
  • ZhulkarnZhulkarn Posts: 50Member ✭✭
    edited April 9
    Well some acts can be done for the sake of RP rather then the material reward. Of course the material rewards should be adjusted slightly to make it more appealing but then it is realistical that if two factions are locked on a prolonged battle they both get damaged economically. Peace time is when you recover your losses from your holdings. 

    On the other hand I am not entirely sure about ammo costs taking weeks/months to repay. That would be the case if you only consider payment to the player if they did not join a majority of the conquest but there is also the payment to the faction which can be used to subsidize further operations. And when there is peace time, that allows building a buffer for potential future skirmishes. 

    That is true the high rank cosmpiercers would be costly to take from player defenders but then those piercers also take a decent amount of time and a motivated group to capture from Ishvana as well. That is natural it should be hard to take from another faction. If it was easier to capture or get captured by Ishvana suddenly, that would be displeasing to groups of people who captured them to begin with as part of a strategical maneuver.

    And at the end of the day everyone has a different reason to take them. For a miner it could be the sensory advantages and they do not even have to join the skirmish at all to reap that reward. Those who consistently join the assaults get something extra and faction will get even more. In CA there is also incentivization system for captures on top of all those mentioned, things pile up. For my character it is worth because it practically says "Ascendancy is here!" on the map. 
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 248Member ✭✭✭
    The only income of factions comes from cosmpiercers, and this is so minuscule that factions are essentially kept running from donations and the good will of a small fraction of its citizens. It's a recipe for burnout.
    itsa Mereas!
  • ZhulkarnZhulkarn Posts: 50Member ✭✭
    Matlkael said:
    The only income of factions comes from cosmpiercers, and this is so minuscule that factions are essentially kept running from donations and the good will of a small fraction of its citizens. It's a recipe for burnout.
    Of course, some of us spent an inordinate amount of marks to bootstrap certain things. If a chemical example would be required, I would liken it to an exothermic reaction which nets released energy. But to start that reaction you have to put some energy first. The initial investments on factional level might seem like a loss when it is built from the donations of players. Yet it provides back in the long run. A RL month worth of cosmpiercer payment is not something negligible and can be used to subsidize further projects. There is an economical feedback at work over there. It should be improved upon yes, but it is not miniscule.

    In future, factions potentially will have direct resources in form of credit bonuses from made purchases. They will have physical shops that can be taxed. And players can even impose certain taxes if they are willing to divert from the usual tax-heaven IRE organization management. They can employ money-borrowing schemes, issue bonds and whatever capitalist trick comes into mind over there if they are willing to put the effort forward.

    Ultimately players generate mark via their activities and then support their factions where faction repays in some form of bonuses for their activities. Some of them are lacking right now, but it will not be the case forever.
  • RocketCatRocketCat Posts: 48Member ✭✭
    Rhindara said:
    The rewards already aren't worth it, and so we're essentially fighting for something to do. If no one is willing to fight over it, we have nothing to do.
    It's a good point, yeah. That said, "fighting for something to do" is sort of my jam :D ... But I understand conflict RP isn't everyone's cup of tea. So yeah, I'd support some additional Cosmpiercer rewards to incentivize participation in group-based interfactional conflict (which isn't just station griefing).

    Perhaps a solution would be to up the Cosmpiercer-related resource faucet. In that department, we currently have SURVEY (which could use some tuning up) and Cosmpiercer gas farms (a good example of emergent, player-driven gameplay which is already increasing Cosmpiercer incentives without any coded changes to the game!). Some additional things could be: limit the ability of opposing factions from harvesting in the Cosmpiercer's influence; increase the resource spawn rates; choose to attract certain resources to spawn in the area from a limited pool of available options; or increase the range on shield defenses to increase the radius of gas farms.

    Rhindara
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 248Member ✭✭✭
    I'm still a fan of increasing cosmpiercer rewards, but it gets lessened according to faction station status!

    We'd want it to be substantial enough that factions who upkeep their stations fully can end up profitable (as in, with enough cosmpiercers, the station missions can pay for themselves), but not too big a bonus that factions can divvy up the cosms three ways and have all of them profitable with regards to missions. 
    itsa Mereas!
  • PaquPaqu Posts: 42Member
    Fuck the cosmpiercers. Make us fight for voidgates ownership instead. Seems more worth fighting for than a bunch of stations that we can't even dock when there's no conflict. Plus, I imagine voidgates will have more substantial rewards. And some perks too. Like if a Scatterfolk uses a voidgate owned by Scatterhome, then they should have huge (I'd say 50%?) discount in usage of that voidgate. Not to mention,  a stable-ish income that goes directly to faction accounts.

    I'm Vianou, by the way.
    Tiase
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