I think we need some anti gas farming stuff

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Comments

  • YayehYayeh Posts: 39Member ✭✭
    I haven't had time until now to really lay out my thoughts on this (which are a lot), and for ease of reading, I'll be separating my long-winded response into three sections: 1. If there's a cap on gas clouds, why I do not think the initial farm seeded by Song "strangled" resources. 2. Why is there a perceived lack of resources (and I say perceived, because I am not a developer, so I cannot see how many asteroids/clouds there are out there currently, waiting to be gathered. and 3) Possible solutions.

    DISCUSSION ON THE POTENTIAL GAS CAP

    Again, this is speculation, because I am not a developer of the game, but let's say there is a cap on the amount of gas clouds that there can be at any given time. Song's farm had approximately 75 gas clouds in one zone comprising of three different clouds: tritium, helium11, and iriil. So for the sake of debate, let's say 25 of each. There are some in this discussion who believe that this gas farm was inhibiting other clouds forming in other areas, causing a very sharp decline in available resources, etc., because there is a cap on the amount of clouds. If the cap exists AND if the cap was defined by one particular resource --- take tritium for example --- then the 25 tritium clouds that were in one zone of the game took up 25 slots of the allotted amount of tritium gas clouds allowed. There are over 1000 space zones in the game. If we destroy those 25 tritium clouds, then the theory is that there are 25 more allowed to be "wild gas clouds." If these wild clouds are distributed evenly over 1000 space zones, that comes to 1 gas cloud per 40 zones. If this is the case, the perceived scarcity of resources would not change. Having a farm or not having a farm would not make a difference. 

    If the cap is based upon the number of clouds total, regardless of cloud type, then again, those 75 clouds in the gas farm evenly distributed across 1000 zones of the game would still not make a difference in the perceived scarcity of resources. The only way that Song's gas farm would have made a huge impact on the possibly existing gas cap is if the cap was ridiculously low. If this is the case (which I don't think it is), is increase the gas cap (if there is one), and examine respawn rates and adjust accordingly.

    Now, there IS an interesting possibility in the second example. Should the possible gas cap exist on the number of clouds regardless of type, then ULTARINE (and a lesser extent elessium) would be the reasons why there's a perceived scarcity of gas. Why? Because both the products that these gases produce and the little amount that's needed for those products make the demand for these two gases very small. Therefore, they go greatly under utilized, and therefore take up a large amount of allotted amount of gas.

    WHY THE PERCEIVED LACK OF RESOURCES


    There are multiple reasons why there's a perceived lack of resources (and again, I say perceived, because 1) I am not a game developer and cannot see how many resources there are out there, and 2) I have not taken the time to explore every inch of all 1000+ space zones out there.

    #1) The last resource update was amazing. It effectively doubled the amount of resources with the changes to asteroids and amounts of gas needed to make refined units. In addition, the spawn rate was no longer tied to the amount of materials already existing in the game in players' cargo holds. The result was resource gathering Christmas. There were asteroids everywhere. There were gas clouds everywhere. It was really fun to go around and gather tons of resources for an extended period of time and manufacture tons and tons of products. This became the new norm (for awhile).

    #2) Station missions appeared and gathering resources increased.  The station missions created a large demand for resources in order to keep up with repairs. I can only say what happened in Song, but the resource gathering contest that Song is sponsoring coupled with an incentive program for gathering resources generated a lot more interest in gathering resources. Let's assume that there was an increase of resource gatherers SH and CA. More gatherers = less resources. Less resources + potentially not effective respawning rate = even more perceived scarcity of resources.

    #3) Material requirements for manufactured products. Many of the station missions required multiple # of the same items to complete repairs on the stations. Some of these materials have very difficult requirements to produce. Let's take rglass for example. It takes 8 vandium and 19 tritium to produce. Let's look at tritium, since this discussion is centered on clouds. It takes 95 unrefined tritium particles to make 19 refined units of tritium required for 1 rglass. If you look at the station missions, there's a lot of rglass, arrays, and sensors requirements. That's a lot of rglass needed. I don't know the exact numbers of how many rglass that Song has had to produce for station repairs, but I'm just imagining three factions needing that much rglass ------ yeah, that's A LOT of tritium that went into those products. And that's just station mission repairs. Add to that all the products that manufacturers made (if there were able to) that required rglass outside of station repairs, and yeah. There's going to be a perceived shortage of tritium clouds out there.

    #4) The map and time.  Like I said earlier, there are over 1000 space zones. However, I think it is safe to say that players will generally search for resources closer the where the refineries are. Therefore, out of the 1000 space zones available for potential resource gathering, my guess is that there are zones that have been much more thoroughly gathered from than ones very far away from refineries. Player tendencies therefore have "made space smaller." And again, when you have many more gatherers looking for resources in a smaller space, there's going to be a perceived scarcity of resources. And why wouldn't you go explore zones less traveled? Time and marks. It takes a very long time to travel out to those zones and back to a refinery. Yes, it certainly is possible, but give a player the option of flying all the way out to one of the less explored zones and come back to a refinery is asking a lot, particularly since there are a lot more fun and rewarding things to do in Starmourn. And sure, you can decrease the time by using skipdrive skills or voidgates, but voidgates cost marks to use. In many cases, using the void gates sucks out any profit that you might have gotten from resource gathering. It just makes more sense to invest in other areas of the game.

    POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

    While there are several that come to mind, I realize that this post took more time than I have, so I'll try to summarize one interesting idea in regards to #4 (the map). One possible solution is introduce a couple of stations in cosmpiercer zones that can support refineries. There's a lot of possibilities with this:

    1) Stations or potential refinery sites in cosmpiercer zones, particularly between Zinari and Ibyssian, would make it at least more enticing for gathers to explore those areas and less time consuming to gather resources.
    2) This would create more value in owning cosmpiercers.
    3) This would create more potential use of existing OPEN PK spaces ---- YAYYYYYY SPACE BATTLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
    4) (insert other awesome things here, because I've run out of time)

    Please discuss this post and other posts further.



    MatlkaelVegaRhindaraReeloc
  • TiaseTiase Posts: 62Member
    I think asteroid mining should be more interactive. We should be able to blow up asteroids into tiny bitsy pieces and haul them away. It's the luck of the draw, what we'll end up with. Then mining because a co-operative action between faction members, instead of a being a mostly solo gig. 

    Other ideas proposed are: Mining stations on asteroids too big to haul away. I propose that they can be destroyed by players and captured. 

    Gas farming. Better mechanics for guards or at least a warning system via  cosmpiercer to tell you who has entered and left the sector. 
  • VegaVega Posts: 57Member ✭✭✭
    Damn, @Yayeh good on you for clearly laying it out all at once. Thank you for taking so much time out to write such detailed feedback. Great job.
    Character: Vega
    Faction: Song Dominion
    Class: Engineer 

    note: I am always up for RP, antagonistic or friendly. If she's being a bitch, it's because you're from Scatterhome or she's trying to meet a deadline and has nothing to do with whether I want to RP with you or not. Thanks in advance for the RP!


    YayehReeloc
  • CubeyCubey Posts: 238Member ✭✭✭
    Here's my solution to the resource shortage:
    Fix the economy bonus. Currently it doesn't work.
    RocketCat
  • RocketCatRocketCat Posts: 112Member ✭✭✭
    Cubey said:
    Here's my solution to the resource shortage:
    Fix the economy bonus. Currently it doesn't work.
    This, yes.
    Hi, I'm Ata. Oh and maybe some other people, too. o:) Check out my various packages for Nexus: Vuu combat system, Global Pathfinder, Slicer Tools, Ship compass, JS from command line, and Vitals Tracker.
  • KitranaKitrana Posts: 62Member
    Yayeh said:
    I haven't had time until now to really lay out my thoughts on this (which are a lot), and for ease of reading, I'll be separating my long-winded response into three sections: 1. If there's a cap on gas clouds, why I do not think the initial farm seeded by Song "strangled" resources. 2. Why is there a perceived lack of resources (and I say perceived, because I am not a developer, so I cannot see how many asteroids/clouds there are out there currently, waiting to be gathered. and 3) Possible solutions.

    DISCUSSION ON THE POTENTIAL GAS CAP

    Again, this is speculation, because I am not a developer of the game, but let's say there is a cap on the amount of gas clouds that there can be at any given time. Song's farm had approximately 75 gas clouds in one zone comprising of three different clouds: tritium, helium11, and iriil. So for the sake of debate, let's say 25 of each. There are some in this discussion who believe that this gas farm was inhibiting other clouds forming in other areas, causing a very sharp decline in available resources, etc., because there is a cap on the amount of clouds. If the cap exists AND if the cap was defined by one particular resource --- take tritium for example --- then the 25 tritium clouds that were in one zone of the game took up 25 slots of the allotted amount of tritium gas clouds allowed. There are over 1000 space zones in the game. If we destroy those 25 tritium clouds, then the theory is that there are 25 more allowed to be "wild gas clouds." If these wild clouds are distributed evenly over 1000 space zones, that comes to 1 gas cloud per 40 zones. If this is the case, the perceived scarcity of resources would not change. Having a farm or not having a farm would not make a difference. 

    If the cap is based upon the number of clouds total, regardless of cloud type, then again, those 75 clouds in the gas farm evenly distributed across 1000 zones of the game would still not make a difference in the perceived scarcity of resources. The only way that Song's gas farm would have made a huge impact on the possibly existing gas cap is if the cap was ridiculously low. If this is the case (which I don't think it is), is increase the gas cap (if there is one), and examine respawn rates and adjust accordingly.

    Now, there IS an interesting possibility in the second example. Should the possible gas cap exist on the number of clouds regardless of type, then ULTARINE (and a lesser extent elessium) would be the reasons why there's a perceived scarcity of gas. Why? Because both the products that these gases produce and the little amount that's needed for those products make the demand for these two gases very small. Therefore, they go greatly under utilized, and therefore take up a large amount of allotted amount of gas.

    WHY THE PERCEIVED LACK OF RESOURCES


    There are multiple reasons why there's a perceived lack of resources (and again, I say perceived, because 1) I am not a game developer and cannot see how many resources there are out there, and 2) I have not taken the time to explore every inch of all 1000+ space zones out there.

    #1) The last resource update was amazing. It effectively doubled the amount of resources with the changes to asteroids and amounts of gas needed to make refined units. In addition, the spawn rate was no longer tied to the amount of materials already existing in the game in players' cargo holds. The result was resource gathering Christmas. There were asteroids everywhere. There were gas clouds everywhere. It was really fun to go around and gather tons of resources for an extended period of time and manufacture tons and tons of products. This became the new norm (for awhile).

    #2) Station missions appeared and gathering resources increased.  The station missions created a large demand for resources in order to keep up with repairs. I can only say what happened in Song, but the resource gathering contest that Song is sponsoring coupled with an incentive program for gathering resources generated a lot more interest in gathering resources. Let's assume that there was an increase of resource gatherers SH and CA. More gatherers = less resources. Less resources + potentially not effective respawning rate = even more perceived scarcity of resources.

    #3) Material requirements for manufactured products. Many of the station missions required multiple # of the same items to complete repairs on the stations. Some of these materials have very difficult requirements to produce. Let's take rglass for example. It takes 8 vandium and 19 tritium to produce. Let's look at tritium, since this discussion is centered on clouds. It takes 95 unrefined tritium particles to make 19 refined units of tritium required for 1 rglass. If you look at the station missions, there's a lot of rglass, arrays, and sensors requirements. That's a lot of rglass needed. I don't know the exact numbers of how many rglass that Song has had to produce for station repairs, but I'm just imagining three factions needing that much rglass ------ yeah, that's A LOT of tritium that went into those products. And that's just station mission repairs. Add to that all the products that manufacturers made (if there were able to) that required rglass outside of station repairs, and yeah. There's going to be a perceived shortage of tritium clouds out there.

    #4) The map and time.  Like I said earlier, there are over 1000 space zones. However, I think it is safe to say that players will generally search for resources closer the where the refineries are. Therefore, out of the 1000 space zones available for potential resource gathering, my guess is that there are zones that have been much more thoroughly gathered from than ones very far away from refineries. Player tendencies therefore have "made space smaller." And again, when you have many more gatherers looking for resources in a smaller space, there's going to be a perceived scarcity of resources. And why wouldn't you go explore zones less traveled? Time and marks. It takes a very long time to travel out to those zones and back to a refinery. Yes, it certainly is possible, but give a player the option of flying all the way out to one of the less explored zones and come back to a refinery is asking a lot, particularly since there are a lot more fun and rewarding things to do in Starmourn. And sure, you can decrease the time by using skipdrive skills or voidgates, but voidgates cost marks to use. In many cases, using the void gates sucks out any profit that you might have gotten from resource gathering. It just makes more sense to invest in other areas of the game.

    POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

    While there are several that come to mind, I realize that this post took more time than I have, so I'll try to summarize one interesting idea in regards to #4 (the map). One possible solution is introduce a couple of stations in cosmpiercer zones that can support refineries. There's a lot of possibilities with this:

    1) Stations or potential refinery sites in cosmpiercer zones, particularly between Zinari and Ibyssian, would make it at least more enticing for gathers to explore those areas and less time consuming to gather resources.
    2) This would create more value in owning cosmpiercers.
    3) This would create more potential use of existing OPEN PK spaces ---- YAYYYYYY SPACE BATTLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
    4) (insert other awesome things here, because I've run out of time)

    Please discuss this post and other posts further.



    1) i also gave some thought to the fact that elessium and ultarine clouds are not getting eaten up and would be taking spawn slots. 
    2) i can attest that there wasn't a massive rush of miners in CA there isn't an incentive programme or anything like that happening in CA so your conjecture there is false for CA, i can't speak to scatterhome though. 
    3) i actually travel far and wide all over the place even out past song's southeastern-most piercers. clouds were not more common enough to be really significant in the far reaches.
    4) since the scuffle at the song farm and what i assume was a diminishing of song's farm wild cloud spawn have increased rather dramatically. they've been small clouds and i haven't depleted any of the ones i have found but resources in the wild are alot more common.
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 338Member ✭✭✭
    I used Song's farm maybe twice :D All my resources came from wild sources (usually that gap between Izaren/Zinari/Atheni, Atheni itself, or out by Vai.
    Mereas Eyrlock
    "They're excited, but poor."
    - Ilyos (August 2019)
  • TiaseTiase Posts: 62Member
    I can speak for scatterhome. There were only three miners tops over in scatterhome. we traveled far and wide all over the place before the discovery of song's farm, looking for resources. It was tough to find any! It was common for me at least to fly to one end of the map then back again and to the next direction. So any claims of "you didn't look hard enough or fly far enough" I'm calling it bullcrap. 

    @Matlkael
     ahah! ya darn varmit! (XD) youse be takin' awwwls the gas ahnd the min'rals! *shakefist*
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 338Member ✭✭✭
    Not saying you didn't look hard enough; rather, Song seems to have a lot of miners, so we have more eyes on the field.
    Mereas Eyrlock
    "They're excited, but poor."
    - Ilyos (August 2019)
    VegaPaquTiase
  • LhundrupLhundrup Posts: 40Member ✭✭
    All I know is that as a free space miner (one without allegiance to any particular faction) I don't really have any reason to log on anymore because of this. I don't want to steal from farms, and I don't want to spend hours scouring free space only to find scraps of clouds left over from previous miners...

    I hope this situation is addressed soon.
    I am Xylem.
    zaccKerek
  • zacczacc Posts: 100Member ✭✭✭
    I agree. Farming creates monopolies that hinder competition in the market, especially so for factionless miners. Resource spawn mechanics need tweaking.
    Are asteroids not moving anymore? I'd think the cost of tethers to keep asteroids coralled in the protected zone would provide a decent upkeep cost. Well, that combined with asteroids potentially taking damage when repeatedly tethered, knocking them back one growth period or chipping a little off the total. Or, and probably much easier, stop asteroid growth after the first tethering.
    As for clouds... IDK. Isn't it easy enough to zip through at full throttle to map out where the clouds are, deploy scoops once outside cosmpiercer zone, then zip back through and take a swipe at the clouds? Release scoops and repeat for extra spite.
  • KitranaKitrana Posts: 62Member
    zacc said:
    I agree. Farming creates monopolies that hinder competition in the market, especially so for factionless miners. Resource spawn mechanics need tweaking.
    Are asteroids not moving anymore? I'd think the cost of tethers to keep asteroids coralled in the protected zone would provide a decent upkeep cost. Well, that combined with asteroids potentially taking damage when repeatedly tethered, knocking them back one growth period or chipping a little off the total. Or, and probably much easier, stop asteroid growth after the first tethering.
    As for clouds... IDK. Isn't it easy enough to zip through at full throttle to map out where the clouds are, deploy scoops once outside cosmpiercer zone, then zip back through and take a swipe at the clouds? Release scoops and repeat for extra spite.
    asteroids don't really move around any more, and you can't harvest gas clouds at full speed.
  • zacczacc Posts: 100Member ✭✭✭
    Kitrana said:
    zacc said:
    I agree. Farming creates monopolies that hinder competition in the market, especially so for factionless miners. Resource spawn mechanics need tweaking.
    Are asteroids not moving anymore? I'd think the cost of tethers to keep asteroids coralled in the protected zone would provide a decent upkeep cost. Well, that combined with asteroids potentially taking damage when repeatedly tethered, knocking them back one growth period or chipping a little off the total. Or, and probably much easier, stop asteroid growth after the first tethering.
    As for clouds... IDK. Isn't it easy enough to zip through at full throttle to map out where the clouds are, deploy scoops once outside cosmpiercer zone, then zip back through and take a swipe at the clouds? Release scoops and repeat for extra spite.
    asteroids don't really move around any more, and you can't harvest gas clouds at full speed.
    I suspected the asteroid movement was a contributor to the frequent lag mini spurts months ago, so no surprise there. Was hoping it would get tuned down a little and not removed completely. That's a shame. I liked having to determine their trajectory and maneuvering into just the right spot to allow enough time for tethering.
    Just tried harvesting a wild ultarine cloud and was able to get it at full throttle. I'm wondering if that's intended or a bug.
    Qitorien
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 338Member ✭✭✭
    You can harvest clouds at full speed, I think, it might just be a little messy because of turn rates.
    Mereas Eyrlock
    "They're excited, but poor."
    - Ilyos (August 2019)
  • YayehYayeh Posts: 39Member ✭✭
    Yes, you can harvest clouds at any speed. It's been a bit easier for me to set the ship's maxspeed lower when harvesting.

    And thank you Ilyos for looking into things!
  • KitranaKitrana Posts: 62Member
    ah, someone told me you couldnt harvest gas at full throttle. my mistake.
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