"They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
Scooping, Mining, and Why I Won't Do It
Hi.
So I've spoken to a lot of people about Gas Scooping, Asteroid Mining/Tethering, Refining, Autofactories, Captaincy, the in-game economy, and their feelings regarding it.
The general sentiment I'm getting from a lot of people is this: it sucks. And I've heard a lot of reasons which could be broken down bit by bit by someone who's spent a lot more time on this system than I have, from things like the cost (high) vs. reward (none) of maintaining autofactories, to XP/mark gains (negligible) from refining and delivering stuff, etc. But I feel like a lot of these concerns miss the most important point, which is an elephant in the room that desperately needs someone to point it out.
It's boring.
Candidly, and while there are many things I love about this wonderful game, which I log in to play several hours every day, I would rather gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon than spend one minute scooping gas, queuing in a refinery and then delivering it through market orders. (Which inevitably will take a good deal longer than 1 minute, because this shit takes ages.)
This system doesn't need minor tweaks to be improved. It doesn't need a few price hikes here and there, a numerical adjustment to the quantities of raw materials in a unit, and so on. It needs to be overhauled. Dramatically. There is simply nothing interesting about it at all. People like @BOB (bless your heart, hero of our times) have tried numerous strategies IG to mobilise the playerbase towards doing more with these systems, with very little success. And I really do have a lot of respect for that guy and would love to help him out, but the moment I make any kind of attempt, I can feel my brain starting to dribble out from my orifices and I'm moved to immediately disembark my ship. A soul of lesser constitution, yet perhaps higher sanity, will instead be moved to log out and not come back.
I really have spoken to a lot of people about this and I'm not alone in sharing this sentiment. I normally hate giving this kind of unconstructive criticism and would love to point to an elegant list of ways to give the system a facelift, but the game is in early enough days that I feel comfortable pointing to the whole shebang here and saying, 'This doesn't work. None of this works. It doesn't.'
Please, Starmourn Staff, during the next round of fixes when you're gathered around a digital table looking at the math on scooping/refining/factories etc., and wondering how things can be mildly adjusted to incentivise greater participation in this system, do not look at things with an eye for mathematics and instead look at this with an eye for fun. Absolutely nothing will inspire me to participate in this corner of the game, no rewards or incentives, except an overhaul involving some kind of minigame/activity that requires me to apply some degree of thought/ingenuity. Hacking is a wonderful little puzzle system that I absolutely adore. Even bashing, while grindy, is something I had fun optimising with my system, and I made it a point to explore various areas to make the climb to 75 a bit more interesting. Questing imparts stories and sometimes takes a bit of exploratory strategising. Scooping and refining etc. has none of that. It needs to be a game. That's why people aren't playing it.
So I've spoken to a lot of people about Gas Scooping, Asteroid Mining/Tethering, Refining, Autofactories, Captaincy, the in-game economy, and their feelings regarding it.
The general sentiment I'm getting from a lot of people is this: it sucks. And I've heard a lot of reasons which could be broken down bit by bit by someone who's spent a lot more time on this system than I have, from things like the cost (high) vs. reward (none) of maintaining autofactories, to XP/mark gains (negligible) from refining and delivering stuff, etc. But I feel like a lot of these concerns miss the most important point, which is an elephant in the room that desperately needs someone to point it out.
It's boring.
Candidly, and while there are many things I love about this wonderful game, which I log in to play several hours every day, I would rather gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon than spend one minute scooping gas, queuing in a refinery and then delivering it through market orders. (Which inevitably will take a good deal longer than 1 minute, because this shit takes ages.)
This system doesn't need minor tweaks to be improved. It doesn't need a few price hikes here and there, a numerical adjustment to the quantities of raw materials in a unit, and so on. It needs to be overhauled. Dramatically. There is simply nothing interesting about it at all. People like @BOB (bless your heart, hero of our times) have tried numerous strategies IG to mobilise the playerbase towards doing more with these systems, with very little success. And I really do have a lot of respect for that guy and would love to help him out, but the moment I make any kind of attempt, I can feel my brain starting to dribble out from my orifices and I'm moved to immediately disembark my ship. A soul of lesser constitution, yet perhaps higher sanity, will instead be moved to log out and not come back.
I really have spoken to a lot of people about this and I'm not alone in sharing this sentiment. I normally hate giving this kind of unconstructive criticism and would love to point to an elegant list of ways to give the system a facelift, but the game is in early enough days that I feel comfortable pointing to the whole shebang here and saying, 'This doesn't work. None of this works. It doesn't.'
Please, Starmourn Staff, during the next round of fixes when you're gathered around a digital table looking at the math on scooping/refining/factories etc., and wondering how things can be mildly adjusted to incentivise greater participation in this system, do not look at things with an eye for mathematics and instead look at this with an eye for fun. Absolutely nothing will inspire me to participate in this corner of the game, no rewards or incentives, except an overhaul involving some kind of minigame/activity that requires me to apply some degree of thought/ingenuity. Hacking is a wonderful little puzzle system that I absolutely adore. Even bashing, while grindy, is something I had fun optimising with my system, and I made it a point to explore various areas to make the climb to 75 a bit more interesting. Questing imparts stories and sometimes takes a bit of exploratory strategising. Scooping and refining etc. has none of that. It needs to be a game. That's why people aren't playing it.
2
Comments
There are other problems which I've talked about on Discord many times, but I know the economy is something that attracted a lot of people to Starmourn in the first place and it has been a huge let down, not even because it's not working properly, but because it just feels like we are so scared of making big changes that might break it that they don't realise just how broken it already is.
I know not everyone is interested in this, but for me personally, RP is the funnest thing in the game; it's engaging in a way that cannot be replicated by any system. What do I get out of it? Nothing, mechanically. I don't get XP or marks for spending a good few hours discussing world domination over tea with @Viola, nor drunken philosophy at Rhodium with @Gabe and @Mattias. (PS hi dude I miss you where the fuck did you go?) But it's fun. That's what keeps me logging in. Hacking and exploring, similarly, convey very few rewards except the satisfaction of knowing I've succeeded/'solved' something cool.
I know a good few people whose only interest in the game was bashing for a good long while and they've all burned out. I did bash to 75, but I did other things in between (and even during, i.e. questing/exploring as I bash) to keep things interesting.
A grind can be 'worth it' in terms of watching numbers grow which can be sort of satisfying, but Starmourn isn't unique in offering this experience. There are other, funner games with funner grinds. Giving people things to grind isn't sufficient for maintaining player engagement if the grind isn't fun.
So, I stand by it needing some sort of minigame, puzzle or quest involvement to make it more entertaining. Something more than just ship thrust 100 30 and ship turn until all the purple's gone.
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
And I definitely agree with on your points regarding the game feeling. I would like people to have more fun and feel like playing a game with their spaceships since most of my RP revolves around enabling people to do stuff in space.
But there are some things which make asteroid mining in that game interesting. One thing that SM might strive for is this: Risk/reward, and the opportunity for min/maxing. One of the nice things for my EVE corpmate is that he could login and fly to the same asteroid belts in the same system everyday and mine the most common ore in the game. Incrementally over time he could make improvements to his ship to allow more and better mining lasers, cargo capacity, and resistance to griefers, so that is a mini-gamr. Even the task of flying through the asteroid belt in an efficient manner is a mini-game. Other miners get their kicks by flying into low security space and harvesting higher value ores.
The key here would be RELIABILITY and PLENTIFULNESS. You don't have to scour the sector for rocks to drag back. Mining in SM could be equally relaxing, but removing some of the frustration-inducing aspects, such as the scarcity. Asteroid belts with fixed coordinates which spawn mineable ores regularly seems reasonable to me. So would the introduction of dedicated mining vessels, which could be acquired eventually by a dedicated player who enjoys the relaxation aspect of a repetitive activity, and could be bought SOLELY off the marks they generated from selling their ore to buyers.
I do agree that it would be reasonable to have asteroid belts and gas clusters to reduce the searching.
The rewards, though, are why the serious miners are not participating. Right now it simply isn't worth the time even if it is intended to be a slow burn.
I'm that guy. Well, not THAT guy, but like that guy. I still play Eve that way. I played JumpGate that way when it was still live. I log in, I go lick rocks, I process the ore, I log out. That's what I enjoy. No idea why.
I like to do it in SM too. I don't want conflict or combat, I just want to help provide for the economy. Making that a bit more reliable, and my productions a bit more reliable, would be a big step forward.
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
I'm not in favour of the process becoming 'slappyhappyfuntime' either. I want there to be an activity that's calm. I have plenty of other games I can load up or log into that get my blood pumping. IMHO resource gathering doesn't need to be one of them. Reliable locations for resources to appear in is a good idea. Asteroid belts, nebulae, etc, where we knew we could find things to gather would be a boon.
Increasing the profitability would also be a good improvement. Right now PvE combat is the only way I make marks. And I can only do that a little bit per day before it just gets boring. See, I find the bashing boring to a certain extent the way others find hauling/processing boring. I've been (mostly good-naturedly) teased on other games for being one of those people who runs out and gather-gather-gathers or haul-haul-hauls, all the livelong day. I like it. It makes me happy. There's a place for all of us in this great big (virtual) world, isn't there?
Most of all there just needs to be something to gather. Right now mining/scooping is at a halt (for me anyhow) because there's nothing to get. Or... okay, I saw a cloud of ultarine yesterday on my way to Omni. But there's no market for ultarine so that would net me a handful of captaincy xp, and I'm of a high enough captaincy rank that I might not even notice it, and it would cost marks to refine. I don't know what it is that's caused all the asteroids and clouds to run away, but I have been logging in less because of it. That's not a shot or a guilt trip: this is a beta. Just expressing my experience. My biggest draws in SM are 1) the hauling/resource gathering/manufacturing, 2) the RP, and PvE is a somewhat distant third. So... please bring back the asteroids and gas clouds? Pretty please? With vuu honey on top?
Before I wander off again, let me say that Starmourn is a great game, beta warts and all. Thank you to the devs and all the helpful people who've made it that way, and whose continued hard work will refine and polish it until it shines.
Gas I would leave alone.
After that, I would do some kind of 'shardfall' for gas and asteroids: global alert for a zone that turns to open ship-pk but has a high concentration of rarer gas or minerals.
Beyond that, it's just not profitable. It could be the best mechanics in the world, and I'd be loathe to do it then.
Jin
VOTE FOR STARMOURN
if there's no kittens in space
I'm going on a rampage
TectonToday at 2:17 PM
They're called w'hoorn, Groot
sets out a saucer of milk
The last time I examined profit margins, I could've made the same money bashing for 2 MINUTES that I would've for several hours of resource gathering.
I have not experienced any of these problems. I find incursions easy and fun. Could use a few minor touch-ups, sure, but nothing as dramatic as what I'm saying scooping/mining needs. It's just the sort of minigame I would appreciate from resource gathering.
The wait period between spawn times as is IMO is just right to allow you to repair, recover the cargo, and chill a bit so shields can recharge. I don't think this part in particular needs touching, but that's its own separate thread, maybe.
— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
It just... Isn't.
Like with most things on the economy side of the game right now
- Not all incursion types are made equal. Some, like trinaries, echo when they spawn: 'Gleaming, predatory, and alien, a swarm of monstrous Trinaries blinks out of nullspace.' Others, like Selassians, do not. They instead sneak up on you.
- Incursion enemies spawn around player ships that are parked in that zone. If more than one person is flying around your incursion zone, they're probably stealing your spawns.
- Incursion enemies have a tendency to move around. Some, like Vonikin Krel, move around a lot more than others; Mining Drones for example remain mostly stationary. If you're parked in an incursion zone and you can't see any enemy ships, you probably missed their spawn and they're now flying all around the zone. Spam ship beacon and wander about to find them.
- Sometimes you might find that you've accidentally slipped into another zone while roving about. Double check incursion list that you're still in the correct zone. (It should show you distance 0.)
I guarantee you that you did not fly around for 10 minutes waiting for a spawn. You just did not locate the spawn, for one of the reasons above.— Oscar Wilde
"I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
— Margaret Atwood
1. To offer hauling contracts: "haul X units of (various miscellaneous objects) for X amount of marks. I feel like these contracts should be plentiful for people of all skillset, and the rewards should be based upon distance/amount shipped.
So, for example I have entry level captaincy skill and the beginning ship - I could talk to an NPC at Crazy Jerry's whom would give me a list of available contracts in the entire sector. I decide I would like to accept a small contract to get started and I'm close to Iota, so I accept the contract: "Deliver 3 pallets of Assorted Fruits from Iota to Omni station for (reasonable amount in comparison to time taken and what could be earned from bashing) Marks" Once I accept the contract the shipment appears in my station cargo for Iota, so I pilot myself over to Iota, transfer the shipment to my ship, make my way to Omni, transfer the shipment to the station and receive my reward after talking to the NPC at the Crazy Jerry's on Omni. (I wholeheartedly believe Crazy Jerry's should be the place to go for all things logistical such as this) I feel that there should be both generated, and player offered contracts. The generated contracts would follow as above, but you're only shipping non-consequential things like pallets of pies, fruits, pipes, etc. And the player offered contracts would involve moving units such as X amount of Hellium11 from Iota to Omni for X amount of marks. Space Trucking. I believe completion of these contracts should award captaincy exp as well.
2. To streamline the process of passing goods between gatherer and manufacturer: I feel as though there needs to be an NPC available that will buy raw materials for an established amount of marks. The materials sold should then be available for sale at the NPC at a higher established price.
So, this means there will be an NPC at stations that will buy raw materials from players, and then turn around and sell those materials to whomever wishes to buy them. This system should be noticeably lower-profit than buying/selling directly from players. But it should be an option. Maybe this could operate similar to the shipforge, have a broker ship dock with your ship when it is within docking range - giving you the option to either BUY or SELL materials all at a pre-determined price.
So, for example: I am just starting out and would like to earn some marks, I fit my ship with scoops and go gather 100 units of helium11. Now, rather than go through a bunch of numbers and data to find the perfect ratio of time vs. profit, I would rather just CALLBROKER while within docking range of a station - "A massive freighter ship emerges from the nearby station and approaches to board with yours!" Now, I would like to BROKER SELL 100 helium11 for X marks. And just like that, the 100 units of raw helium11 are turned into marks and are now available in that station's broker ship inventory for a predetermined price. Same process with tethered asteroids. For example; It could BUY helium11 at 10 marks per unit, then SELL helium11 at 25 marks per unit (or whatever the pricing should be)
Maybe this "Broker ship" should only be available at Iota and/or Omni... Maybe they should be available at all stations. Maybe it should only be available for the more common materials, maybe it should be for all raw materials... Maybe this broker ship should be 100% player stocked, maybe it should generate a certain amount of certain materials...