Scoundrel - Skill Feedback
edited January 2019 in Feedback
-Guile's attack skills are not feasible for PvE and a weaker overall option for PvP.
-Guile in PvE (i.e., haymaker does both less damage and does not allow for reload moved); trip, bind, and pummel do not work in PvE. None of the reload abilities work in PvE. Since hunting for marks and equipment will continue to take a lot of time, there is zero reason to use agility currently and zero reason to use guile in PvE or PvP as a result. These moves probably need a core functionality review and potentially turned into more defensive abilities or make them more compatible with the rest of the scoundrel skillset?
-Regular and combusting ammo in gunslinging still feel wrong from a playability and enjoyment perspective. I would rather see combusting get some afflictions and deal muscular damage and regular bullets be dropped all-together unless they are changed to deal scaling damage based on how heavily armored your opponent is (i.e., useful against BEASTs or others running very defensive setups or against heavily armored denizons). The damage I do in level 70+ zones with a level 71 piece and full aim is barely enough to grind current level as strong as me mobs -- I feel like scoundrel PvE bullet damage needs a slight increase back to what it was before.
-Scoundrels lack from any kind of passive skills for combat like other classes get -- i.e., kith blade powers, routing, plasma nozzles, emperyeals, blade changes, etc.; I would like to see some of these duplicative and less than useful skills be phased out and exchanged for skills that are passive and allow for changes to how the scoundrel works. One such option would be allowing scoundrels to change clip size from 2-16 bullets to allow for more reload or less reload abilities to be used. Another would be to put a scope on the pistol (more damage out-of-room for ironsights, but less in-room -- for lower level character supporting with ranged combat; or perhaps a melee adaption in guile that allows for shooting bullets based on agility instead of aim).
-Improvisation has a lot of kind of useless options -- hiding and stickybombs and just setting off IEDs is not very effective from my experience. I would prefer that these were changed for more shrapnel-like utility.
Kneecap Smash them in the knee and reload your pistol.
-Scoundrel does not have a good way to deal muscular damage, so this skill is largely useless. I could get more use from this if it scaled off of internal (wounding) instead, or if scoundrel's had a reliable gunslinging method of dealing muscular damage.
Suckerpunch Drive your fist into their gut.
-I used this consistently while bashing before the changes to IEDs, but it is really weak for bashing since the winded condition does not deal PvE damage. In PvP, it seemed to be doing about 30-40 damage anytime someone moved which is negligible. I would like to see the damage on winded scale to 3-4% of heal (maybe 120 damage)?
Gritblast Blast them with grit while reloading.
-I did not get a lot of use out of this because the damage was subpar and it the AB file does not show that it grants any afflictions or systems damage. It hits everyone in the room for about 1/3rd the damage of my other reload abilities.
Haymaker A powerful swing with your titanium knuckles.
-A really weak option compared to your gun -- not sure why a scoundrel would ever use it? It deals 10% less damage than gunslinging regular bullets even with maximum stats in each category and also does not allow for a reload option. In addition, since none of the other guile attacks work in pvE due to instant cure of prone, you would never go into agility because you need aim for PvE. Therefore, none of the guile-based attacks are worthwhile.
Stim Heal yourself with stims.
-A good heal -- seems fine to me.
Trip Send them reeling.
-Prone is really easy to cure, so it's not super useful outside of a channeling interrupt or as part of a strategy to use bind. Does not work at all in PvE
Bind Hog-tie your helpless target.
-Does not work in PvE due to instant cure of prone; have not tested the changes, but it never seems to last as long as advertised for PvP either.
Pummel Beat them into a pulp.
-Useless -- does not work in PvE because of the cure and does not even close to enough damage in PvP due to how far down into fight you need and how easy to cure the conditions needed to start this are.
Incite Incite a riot!
-I have not managed to get this to work yet.
Strangle Finish off your bound foe.
-Forcefeed seems a lot easier to pull-off than this one and the damage tick is so long that you will never get off more than one tick of this attack; it needs to be adjusted to be useful and tick far more quickly.
Illegalmods Safety is overrated.
-I've never seen flight run out -- is this a really useful skill?
Bar Prevent traversal.
-I like bar, it works well, but UNBAR needs to be added to the AB file.
Improvisedcover Take cover where you can.
-I never run out of cover in rooms that can have cover and this skill does not work in rooms that do not already have props; I'm still trying to find a use case in PvP for this skill since cover does not seem useful in PvE currently.
Jetwash Disturb the air around them.
-I have not yet been able to get this skill to work.
Shoulderroll Roll from one cover to another.
-I have not tested this yet.
Rouse Rally the troops.
-A really quick skill, it would be nice if the duration was slightly longer than 30 seconds.
Conceal Hide in plain sight.
-Slink and conceal are rarely useful for me since they both end on movement and it's completely duplicated from the skirmishing tree.
Dash Sprint in a chosen direction.
-There are rarely rooms in a straight line based on how the zones are built, so this skill doesn't really come in handy.
Airstrike Call in an airstrike.
-I use this skill a lot and it's pretty balanced given the long CD and that it can only be used outside.
Bugs Plant a bug.
-Works well, but I wish allies, crew mates, and their loyal followers did not stop this. Works as intended.
Scan Assess the situation.
-Not very useful given the very limited information provided
Track Who passed through here?
-I use this regularly and it works well, but tracks do not seem to last long enough.
Multibug Tune into multiple bugs at once.
-Works well, I like it. Works as intended.
Wipetracks Disturb your tracks so nobody can follow you.
-Tracks don't last very long, so I rarely get use out of this.
Visualbug Detect movement through your bugs.
-I like this skill a lot -- very fun. Works as intended.
Edit: I misread the timer AB and it's actually already a mod that will tick a bomb several times.
Edit: I misread the timer AB and it's actually already a mod that will tick a bomb several times.
Fling Throw an IED while you reload.
(Scatterhome): You say, "Which by my calculations, it's your turn to pay."
(Scatterhome): Brantar says, "That's what my calculations have come to."
(Scatterhome): Paavo says, "My math adds up to that, yeah."
(Scatterhome): Cal says, "Bastards."
There are quite a few that need review, like the ones that are repeated in exploration or skirmishing. The go to skills for leveling are
Typical rotation is to lead with ambush if I can, rapidfire if I can't. I'll use fling whenever I can and eject on cooldown, but only if a mob is > 40% HP. Similarly I won't rapid fire if the mob has < 15% HP and instead use crackshot. Kneecap gets used when the mob will die from it instead of a ripper fling (some 5-10% HP).
It depends on how much damage you're doing with rippers, but the preferred ammo is either weakening or combusting.
I prefer having an empty magazine because ripper + shrapnel in one balance does more than rapidfire in many cases, and you get a reload out of it, as such I'd rather have the opposite of you, the ability to empty the magazine after a fight instead of reload it.
What I would like to see addressed are these:
Other than that just having the bugs fixed would be great. Like when you fling an IED with wiring but it hits you on the subsequent hits if they leave, things like that. I realize that will come with time.
Add your feedback specifically if you have some ideas, I think the more information we put out there as players the better the class will be with time!
21000 IEDs? This is my sad lha-ti face. .
21000 IEDs? This is my sad lha-ti face. .
Scoundrel can deal damage to any subsystem they want to, and apply some of the best afflictions from every single list at will.
Use Suckerpunch twice?
Gritblast is an AoE you use while technically off-balance if you have no other reload.
Scoundrels probably have the best kit for proning and keeping enemies proned... Trip is a melee interrupt, which a lot of classes don't have.
Stim is not an "okay" heal, it's probably the best heal available for all classes.
Bind, try doing as the skill advises you to?
I'd like to see Pummel in action.
Incite reads like it could be absolutely insane.
I'll trade you improvisedcover for repair.
Jetwash is probably an instakill at this point in time.
lmao at that Rouse comment.
Track/Wipetracks might be useful in fights that aren't clunky spammy skirmishes.
I assume Pointblank applies affs. Also, more interrupts are nice.
Ironsights is one of the few things that targets out of room.
Outgunned is your class AoE, every class has them, I've seen this personally used to wipe about 3 people after a terrible misplay.
Disrupting bullets are OP as fuck, I'm not going to explain why, but jesus christ.
Arcing bullets is strange for Scoundrel but helps you set up for other classes.
I'm not going to comment on the rest of your ammo types because it's absurd that you think that's bad at all.
Your reload options all seem fair.
As someone who's been involved in real PVP, Cover is useful, you disregard it way too much.
Stickybomb probably combos with that ability that sets off IEDs.
Not commenting on IEDs but those late game ones do what Nanoseers have to spend five balances to do to one target, to an entire room.
Scoundrel's heal is the lowest cooldown out of all classes and requires no prep or resources to cast unlike Nanoseer or Engineer. It ALSO has a reduced balance time. BEAST has the same balance cost but no cooldown reduction. Fury balance is 2 seconds, but this is because of how their other balances work. Automatic heal is 14% health.
Scoundrels have a few ways of defending themselves or disabling their foes to protect themselves. If you can't see those, I'm happy to leave a Scoundrel without them.
I'll just do what I can remember without the fancy quotes.
Conceal allows you to bug rooms that contain players or sentient NPCs.
Wipetracks actually gives you a shroud like effect. They cannot see you enter or exit the room. Also might have hid a few other things that I now forget.
Eject doesn't lose you a reload. It gains you a reload ability. It sets your current bullets to zero. So you can fling an IED, which sets bullets to 8, then EJECT while off balance which sets bullets to zero, then you can immediately fling another bomb. It's perfect how it is and sets up combos, and will get better when they improve the glaring weakness of Improvisation as a whole.
Ironsights currently works perfectly as far as I'm aware. It's bread and butter in PvP.
You seem to have some confusion on IEDs. Shrapnel, Wiring, and Timer are all mods. Stickybombs is a reload ability (that sucks and should be reworked). Wiring functions how you want Timing to work. Wiring causes a bomb to repeat it's effect several times, albeit "weaker" on certain types. However it is effective with Pusher and Sleeper.
Timer is pointless, since the delay it adds is so random you can't really work around it.
Multibomb was a huge disappointment. No added damage or effect, it just spreads the effect to adjacent rooms. If it increased the effect and damage, it could be useful with Timer so you could flee the explosion. As it is now it has a separate cooldown from Trigger so in a pinch it could be useful to get off another Pusher.
Trigger doesn't hit you or targets behind cover. Also triggered pushers do not hit you even outside of cover, nor does Shrieker if you have no mind afflictions. If you have wiring on the pusher, subsequent ticks can hit you. Trigger has moderate use with Sleeper with Wiring.
Tripwire is a lot of fun, but it's current implementation leaves something to be desired. First of all, why do I trigger my own tripwires? How clumsy am I exactly to step on a tripwire I just placed? Not much of a Scoundrel, more of a bumbling idiot.
Secondly I feel tripwires should interrupt crashing. The balance on tripwire is so long that if I had the foresight to place one midcombat, I should be rewarded, not punished. As it stands now, they crash out, avoiding it, and when you follow you now trip your own tripwire, both being interrupted and taking the effect. You will trigger a tripwire if you crash into a room containing a tripwire, but you will not trigger one in the room as you crash out. This interaction feels weird.
Pusher bomb is pretty good in PvP. It's a shame they had to nerf it to no longer affect any NPC. But in PvP, it is useful for splitting up a gank squad of followers.
Wiring has some bizarre effects. If you Fling a wired bomb at someone, then they leave the room, subsequent ticks hit you (or another random target if you are not alone). This doesn't seem intended as Fling is supposed to be single target. Also if someone hits a tripwired bomb that has wiring, then leaves the room, again it starts hitting you.
Other than that, I mostly agree with you.
On another note, the syntax for making bombs should be IED CONSTRUCT <1-20> <Bomb Type> WITH <Bomb Mod>. As it stands now, making bombs is just a huge pain in the ass and time waster. I mean I'm going to prep them all anyway, except I have to waste 1-4 hours of my time a day not having fun. It just encourages AFK bomb crafting.
Also cover doesn't appear to be functioning as intended. As far as I've tested, using a melee ability or having a melee ability used on you, does not seem to bring you out of cover. I don't think this is intended at all. Especially when the HELP PROPS file seems to suggest that you cannot melee while in cover, and that being melee'd should break your cover.
There are some glaringly large flaws to some of the mechanics and I do think they should be fixed. That being said everyone is still trying to figure stuff out regarding combat. Instead of shooting things down immediately we should be sharing what we know then coming up with solutions rather than angry shit posting.
I'm not sure what defensive options you think fury has that are better than sleep bombs. Wasting 10 rage for just a damage resistance?
I would trade fury defense for scoundrel defense any day. Suffuse is nice, since it's quick, but sleep seems amazing in this game.
It sounds like bind is just bugged, based on your description, which isn't really a balancing concern (just a bug).
Wipe Tracks also seems useful with the shroud effect. Is that in the AB file or just found via testing?
I agree with the comments on tripwire too - even with treading, I still set off my own tripwires. This seems like a bug fix rather than any functional change.
I am hoping to get some time in the arena soon to do some more testing.
My comments on defense abilities ties mostly relate to PVE because currently I still die frequently to mobs in the 65-Any bracket when using all of my abilities, cooldowns, and being at maximum health. The other classes I see in these areas are able to function and clear mobs that I cannot reliably clear.
The goal of this post was to look at all the scoundrel skills and their overall uses - if other classes have skills that are not useful in practice feel free to make your own class posts and mention cases where there are options in your skill trees that will never really see use because they are subpar compared to something else available earlier in the tree or duplicated somewhere else.
Maruna said: If you don't know why Sensory is good then you're just bad and I'm glad you'll never learn how to use it in PVP.
lmao at the little crew over there, get lives, thx.
I love the jabs about how I'm inexperienced and don't understand the balance of the game and all this thick guru-crap you keep trying to pull. None of you are anybody ingame, and you're barely even known in your home MUDs, so get out.
Also that little statement at the end is just hilarious considering you were permanently banned in achaea for this exact sort of behaviour. Not to mention shrubbed in every other game. It's like you never learn. You're not exactly renowned as a very good pker yourself, cupcake.
I like how you can't even discuss your thought process when you get told you're wrong. It's just straight to personal attacks, condescension and general snarky asshattery with you. You could really do with some self reflection.
Or shrubbed in other games...?
Thanks for that, now I know people have been shitstirring.
This thread is really not the place for it, if you want to continue elsewhere then carry on, but ew.
Edit: You saved that snip days ago... You didn't just go to fetch that. Really not the place to have this discussion, but carry on showing yourself up.
Edit Edit: Who derailed a thread to accuse someone of being someone that they're not? That's... You.
Edit Edit Edit: Not posting to stop annoying people with alerts or whatever. You're literally nothing but a bunch of sad trolls.
Edit Edit Edit Edit: Personal attacks!!! You are an absolute joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was doing the math yesterday and it seems generally worse to use them then not.
Stupefy requires 25% mind damage (14 bullets minimum because of wet wiring regen). Then you can stick 5 infusing bullets for stupefy which increases further damage by 50% (3% per bullet). However, the stupefy bullets do not harm systems, so you are losing 10% mind damage for the switch. Therefore, you need to shoot ten more mind bullets just to catch-up. Shooting 10 more mind bullets takes around 25 seconds and the affliction only lasts 30 seconds, so there seems to be mathematically very little reason not to just keep shooting impairing bullets and deal actual mind damage to cause further system feedback earlier? Given the loss of 2s of balance to switch bullet types, you are unlikely to see any benefit at all from this approach.
Potential changes to make this useful would be to extend the duration on stupefy to 45-60 seconds to provide a return on stupefy.
Increase the mind damage increase of stupefy from 10% to 15-20%.
Remove the 25% minimum subsystem damage for stupefy to stick.
Add some mind damage from the application of stupefy itself.
Any of those four adjustments would make adding the complexity of infusing bullets to PvP worthwhile from a mathematical perspective.
The same changes to stupefy would also apply to the other types of subsystem damage increase afflictions.
We tested this yesterday in the arena to confirm the mechanics of how infusing damage works.
If I overlooked anything on this one from a mechanics perspective, please feel free to correct it.
-- Updates - #48 --------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 01/03/2019 at 02:45
Author: Tecton, the Singularity
Subject: Scoundrel IEDs.
We've just overhauled the IED construction and storage system, making it a little more intuitive,
and reducing inventory clutter from having dozens, or in at least one person's case, tens of
thousands of IEDs *glare* in your inventory.
If you've played a tarot-wielding class in Achaea, this mechanic is similar to tarot decks there,
where you store the items in a non-inventory location. In Scoundrel's case, this in in your
bandolier! Your bandolier will allow you to store up to 500 of each IED type/mod combination (So 500
unmodified rippers, 500 rippers with wiring, 500 rippers with shrapnel etc.)
All Scoundrels have been given a bandolier and their existing IEDs have been moved into this storage
mechanism. Excess IEDs were safely disposed of.
- BANDOLIERS ability has been added to the Improvisation skill. IED CONTENTS, IED STORE, and IED
REMOVE have been added.
- Keeping with the improvised theme, IEDs are now built from junk in your inventory. You now IED
CONSTRUCT <IED> FROM <junk> - the number of IEDs scales up with the value of the junk.
- IEDs are automatically pulled from your bandolier when you use an improvisation ability.
- IEDs are automatically stored in your bandolier upon construction (if possible).
- IEDs will be used from your inventory first.
- IEDs not stored in your bandolier will fall from your hands when you die/logout.
- Having a bunch of IEDs in your inventory can cause you to fumble your Improvisation abilities, due
to the clutter.
- Most abilities have been modified to support multi-word IED types to preselect an IED/Mod
combination. You can now IED LOB SHRAPNEL RIPPER EAST for example.
We hope these changes make things a little more streamlined for our swarthy scoundrels - enjoy!
Tecton clarified in Discord that the exchange rate is 2 marks per IED. So, for example, a 50 mark piece of junk would net you 25 IEDs.