Fury Thread - Stay on topic.

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  • kamdiankamdian Member Posts: 37
    Scoundrel has an ability that is basically a riposte I think (could be wrong there, but that is what it looks like) so their active attacks are not going as fast as what it seems. 

    Also going for wounds is a bad idea in pvp at present with the nerf to bleeding. I don’t have access to look at my skills at present, but you can get to Sunder in 3 combos which will do 250+ against a scoundrel probably all on its own, assuming you have no hindrance against room-wide abilities. Or go for an affliction-heavy strategy to try and slow them down. Probably arms or head would be best. I can mess around in the arena later if you want to test things out. 
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    StarFiry said:
    Coupe things... I’ve never declared Furies as a sucky class, I do enjoy it quite a bit, even with all the squashiness.
    You said it's only good for bashing rats. That's sugarcoating saying it sucks.

    To to the point of “you have to beef up your char before participating in any meaningful combatting”, I, wholeheartedly disagree. Even levels should be even against each other. It’s not like I fought level 60, but rather someone 2 levels below me and 3 levels above me.
    The damage system in IRE games doesn't work this way. Never has. The class who does more damage at a low level is gonna win 10/10 times. If you rely on affs, you're unlikely to be able to get those affs in time before you pop (and fury relies on affs [modifiers]).

    To sustain the environment and attract new players, it has to be balanced.
    This is rather false. DotA is far from balanced (and I say this as someone who's played it from the start), and it's got boat loads of players. Every class being equal always, is how a game dies. Not thrives. Devs who don't strive for parity know this.

    If someone comes into the game 18 months from now and it will take them years to catch up, do you think we’ll see a lot of new faces that can be retained? Doubt it. They should be able to PvP equal levels in a balanced way from the get-go.
    It won't take them years to catch up, because there's a level cap. I said it already: Parity is bad. If you're developing for a pvp game and you have parity at every point, pvp is going to stagnate and die if everyone is always equal to one another. If you want to survive damage, you get more health and/or use afflictions to mitigate that damage. This has literally been a thing since IRE's inception.

  • IzrithIzrith Member Posts: 28
    I have no idea where you get the idea that having classes be on an equal footing is a bad idea. If I didn't know for a fact that you have a Fury then I'd think that you just wanted your own class to keep its punching bag.

    All classes should start on an equal footing; in the perfect world, two different classes at the same level with the same equipment and the same player skill behind them would have a 50/50 chance in combat. Where disparity starts to appear is in individual player skill and equipment, but suggesting that it's okay for one class to be absolutely worthless at PvP against an equally leveled different class is utter lunacy, even if it's not at max level.

    Additionally, your claim that Fury will be better towards max level because it relies on afflictions is false to anyone with common sense, because while the Fury will indeed get more afflictions and better ways to apply them as they level up, the other classes get the same and more ways to remove them.
    kamdianStarFiry
  • kamdiankamdian Member Posts: 37
    edited December 2018
    Other classes getting afflictions and ways to remove afflictions with skill level has absolutely no bearing on furies getting better by default at a higher player level given that you will have a higher health pool and thusly a longer death timer. You need to get up to 80% rage really to start shining as a Fury with Unstoppable attacks. Common sense says that that is a lot harder to live to get to that at level 30 as opposed to 60 with the health difference alone not to mention addition of other stats. 
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Izrith said:
    I have no idea where you get the idea that having classes be on an equal footing is a bad idea. If I didn't know for a fact that you have a Fury then I'd think that you just wanted your own class to keep its punching bag.
    Because different classes fight differently... Fury is a class that relies on living longer, so of course they're not going to be great when they have no health... I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

    All classes should start on an equal footing; in the perfect world two different classes at the same level with the same equipment and the same player skill behind them would have a 50/50 chance in combat. Where disparity starts to appear is in individual player skill and equipment, but suggesting that it's okay for one class to be absolutely worthless at PvP against an equally leveled different class is utter lunacy, even if it's not at max level.
    They do start on an equal footing. You're both at full health, 0 attacks done to one another. From the very start, it's a matter of attacks used that dictates what happens. Seems like you want to be able to do the same damage right off the bat, as a pure damage class, despite not being a pure damage class. That's just plain silly.

    Additionally, your claim that Fury will be better towards max level because it relies on afflictions is false to anyone with common sense, because while the Fury will indeed get more afflictions and better ways to apply them as they level up, the other classes get the same and more ways to remove them.
    So what you're saying is when you, and others, are living longer in a fight... You'll have more ways to influence the fight? Almost as if that's what I've been saying this entire time. And no you don't get more ways to remove afflictions, not passive at least like wetwiring is. You have skills, that cost balance, to remove them. Which means they're not doing anything to you whilst removing them. Certain classes can also only remove certain afflictions.


  • AristaArista Member Posts: 59 ✭✭
    StarFiry said:
    Squeakums said:
    @StarFiry what level was this at? 
    I am level 28ish with level 19 kithblade (great drops! hehe) and guessing the opponent was low 20.

    Look at the excerpt from the log, in time it took me to do 1 (ONE!) combo, he attacked 6 times! Even if you ignore him attacking first, after my input was accepted to do the combo, he was able to squeeze 4 attacks between my single BATTLEFLOW and RAGE combo.

    Name replaced to conceal identity to OPPONENT. What's below is what happened in the period of 1 ballance for me:

    "Okay," you declare.
    OPPONENT: cricks his neck and looks slowly around, adopting a more casual, unthreatening stance...but his fingers tighten on the grip of a Flashfire 1.0 piece. He looks vigilant and prepared.
    You have barely moved towards OPPONENT before you find yourself staggering back, clutching a new bullet wound in your gut, your ears ringing from the sound of his weapon.
    [Wetwiring]: Internal system now stands at 98.00%
    [Wetwiring]: Hypertension detected.
    The bullet slices into your body in a burst of pain, and a wetwiring warning flashes across your vision to alert you that you have been afflicted by hypertension.
    Your movements are a blur, an Axyr T-1-Pro kithblade humming and flickering with grace and power as you swiftly cut into OPPONENT's weakened body.
    Damage Dealt: 135 impact
    You have barely moved towards OPPONENT before you find yourself staggering back, clutching a new bullet wound in your gut, your ears ringing from the sound of his weapon.
    [Wetwiring]: Internal system now stands at 96.00%
    [Wetwiring]: Staggering detected.
    The bullet slices into your body in a burst of pain, and a wetwiring warning flashes across your vision to alert you that you have been afflicted by staggering.
    You will execute the flyinglash rage maneuver when you can.
    [Wetwiring]: Internal system damage repaired. Subsystem health: 96.50%.
    You flow smoothly into the Flare stance.
    You have barely moved towards OPPONENT before you find yourself staggering back, clutching a new bullet wound in your gut, your ears ringing from the sound of his weapon.
    [Wetwiring]: Internal system now stands at 94.50%
    [Wetwiring]: Hypertension detected.
    The bullet slices into your body in a burst of pain, and a wetwiring warning flashes across your vision to alert you that you have been afflicted by hypertension.
    You follow by lashing out at OPPONENT from above with an Axyr T-1-Pro kithblade.
    Damage Dealt: 124 impact
    You have recovered your balance.


    You actually are missing something here, though there may also be a bug. He's using Overwatch, which requires him to perform no other actions and can be disrupted by you using kith fever, among other things (reel, stun, topple, etc.).

    When you see the "Person cricks his neck and looks slowly around, adopting a more casual, unthreatening stance...but his fingers tighten on the grip of a Flashfire 1.0 piece. He looks vigilant and prepared." You should use Kith Fever to cancel the stance. You're essentially killing yourself by attacking him when he's in a counter-attacking stance.

    As for the bug, it's supposed to shoot you every time you attack, but to me it looks like it's shooting you when you queue the rage attack and then again when the rage attack actually fires, which seems unintended. Either way, though, if you fever it, it'll end it, and that's how you deal with that.

    Things probably are imbalanced at these levels because of damage and health levels, but in some circumstances, people just haven't learned how to fight yet.

  • IzrithIzrith Member Posts: 28
    You're missing Maruna is that you don't live longer at a higher level. Everyone gets more damage as they level; in all likelihood you'll die faster at higher levels against more geared and leveled opponents
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Izrith said:
    You're missing Maruna is that you don't live longer at a higher level. Everyone gets more damage as they level; in all likelihood you'll die faster at higher levels against more geared and leveled opponents
    Except they don't scale at the same rate. Saying you don't live any longer at a higher level is objectively wrong. You're forgetting armour also gets stronger as you level. Not to mention more abilities at your disposal. You have some very weird understanding of scaling.
    The final line of Arista's post pretty much hits the nail on the head.

    kamdianMinion
  • IzrithIzrith Member Posts: 28
    I'm not arguing that people don't know how to fight yet - what I'm arguing is that damage goes up more than survivability does with levels. Granted, I can only speak as to Fury about this, but the armor 'upgrades' while leveling has given zero appreciable increase in damage reduction. Again, this may be a thing about light armor, but all light armor (which Fury uses) I've ever seen hovers around 10% DR and does not seem to go up in any significant way as you gain higher level armor.

    Conversely, weapon power does go up enough to actually notice a difference. As an example, at level one Gutrend was doing around 70-80ish damage, and by level 25 it was doing 100-120ish.

    In addition, investing in lifeforce has both a cap and diminishing returns
    meaning that you can only gain so much life, and it doesn't outpace damage.

    This isn't even talking about how easily afflictions are cured by the way. WW MEND MUSCULAR shuts down Fury hard. I just don't see any situation in which Fury is viable in either low or high level PvP compared to BEAST or Scoundrel. Nanoseer is in a similar boat I hear, since they rely on afflictions too.
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Nobody said it outpaces damage, though? We've said it helps you live longer than you would at a low level, which is true. Mods are going to be a high factor as well, which almost (maybe completely?) nobody has even started acquiring with any modicum of frequency yet.
    It is far, far too early to judge. Basing and balancing pvp off of what a level 20 does to another level 20, is absurd. If you can't see that I honestly don't know what to tell you. There's a reason no game developer (that has scaling-centric pvp, at least) balances around lower level pvp, and is generally why there's classes that shine significantly more than others.
    Minion
  • DariosDarios Member Posts: 52 ✭✭
    It 100% outpaces damage lol. There seems to be no (or a very small) scaling portion on attacks here.

    I gain 80 health per level while I'm still investing in LF and I won't hit LF cap until level 50. Its going to take more attacks to kill me the higher level I am. 
  • CubeyCubey Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018

    Maruna said:
    Because different classes fight differently... Fury is a class that relies on living longer, so of course they're not going to be great when they have no health... I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.
    Newsflash: classes can fight differently and still be balanced. Balanced doesn't mean identical.
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    Cubey said:

    Maruna said:
    Because different classes fight differently... Fury is a class that relies on living longer, so of course they're not going to be great when they have no health... I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.
    Newsflash: classes can fight differently and still be balanced. Balanced doesn't mean identical.
    You should probably read the rest of the comment, instead of cherrypicking.
  • AvymosAvymos Member Posts: 28
    From what I can tell, higher levels of armor dont reduce physical damage taken, just systems damage. At least, for light armor. I could be wrong, but from my (incredibly brief) testing, little to no change from 1-20 armor.
  • JinxJinx Member Posts: 1
    For all those who are having issues with capturing your stance via gmcp.. here is a little code snipit from me. Enjoy :)  

    LUA:

    battle_flow_stance_return=function()
          return gmcp.Char.Vitals.st
    end

  • StarFiryStarFiry Member Posts: 32
    In any case. I am done with the game. Merry Christmas, everyone and a Happy New Year!
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    You tell Tasp, "How's your luck been with upgrading your kithblade? Seems we furies all have shoddy luck with them dropping."
    [1751|0.00%|94%|Symmetry] (BW) <09:00:54.751>

    Damage Dealt: 121 unblockable - Remaining: 3
    The exhilharation of victory rushes over you, suffusing your limbs with energy.
    You have slain a coiling skilth snake.
    Slain this session: 24.
    You retrieve a Cyrax T-3-Elite kithblade from a coiling skilth snake.
    A coiling skilth snake collapses, drained of its lifeblood.
    [1261|41.00%|95%|Eruption] (-W) <09:01:22.643>

    This has been the second time it's happened.  O.o
    ThaithMavis
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    Me, @Atalkez and @Zaeg worked out something else which seems to work. Follows this kind of logic:
    Swiftcut/Flyinglash (or slice if unstoppable) -> Flare Stance
    Wound/Rend (or slice if unstoppable) -> Eruption Stance
    Hypertension/Upperlash (or slice if unstoppable, resistant if ~50% hp) -> Ember Stance
    Legspike/Strike (or unstoppable if >80 rage, slice if already unstoppable) -> Start over

    The damage actually does more (not much, like ~30) than the standard bleed combo, and Hypertension hits harder than the other attacks (including rupture) plus provides more bleed. Also has the benefit of flowing through a stance that allows using resistant when needed. Swiftcut also gets buffed after the first combo. Me and Atalkez, at least, have been using this one to a seemingly greater effect now that we're getting higher. I may expand on the combo a little, if I decide to make affliction tracking for mobs, to gutrend after legspike and flow into a different combo... Will report later.


    AtalkezMogarcheMavis
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    Did a couple more tests.
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/psmaBRGP 50 regen/max lifeforce
    59:35.915 -> 00:03.016. Minus 2 seconds for the suffuse... 26 seconds to kill.
    1767 damage / 26 = 68 dps
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/xkNxuRe5 50 regen/lifeforce, rest in strength (126 so far) - 300 less health.
    01:19.765 -> 01:42.870. Minus 2 seconds for suffuse... 21.1 seconds to kill.
    1783 damage / 21.1 = 84.5 dps

    Anecdotal test, but going to continue running with this build for now to see if 300 less health is worth taking 1 less balance (roughly) to kill things.



    Zaeg
  • AlbionAlbion Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2018
    At lv49 I'm bashing with 300 strength after running tests and never use resistant. Might not be for everyone though. 

  • ZaegZaeg Member Posts: 4
    Maruna said:
    Me, @Atalkez and @Zaeg worked out something else which seems to work. Follows this kind of logic:
    Swiftcut/Flyinglash (or slice if unstoppable) -> Flare Stance
    Wound/Rend (or slice if unstoppable) -> Eruption Stance
    Hypertension/Upperlash (or slice if unstoppable, resistant if ~50% hp) -> Ember Stance
    Legspike/Strike (or unstoppable if >80 rage, slice if already unstoppable) -> Start over

    I have been using this combo too, just replacing Hypertension with Bloodburn if I make it around for to a second loop. I do more much dps once I factor in downtime with Resistant. I also see a dps improvement across the area when I start each new target with Fever.
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    Zaeg said:
    Maruna said:
    Me, @Atalkez and @Zaeg worked out something else which seems to work. Follows this kind of logic:
    Swiftcut/Flyinglash (or slice if unstoppable) -> Flare Stance
    Wound/Rend (or slice if unstoppable) -> Eruption Stance
    Hypertension/Upperlash (or slice if unstoppable, resistant if ~50% hp) -> Ember Stance
    Legspike/Strike (or unstoppable if >80 rage, slice if already unstoppable) -> Start over

    I have been using this combo too, just replacing Hypertension with Bloodburn if I make it around for to a second loop. I do more much dps once I factor in downtime with Resistant. I also see a dps improvement across the area when I start each new target with Fever.
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/XUkZtc6n
    06:31.049 -> 06:51.272. Minus 2 seconds for the suffuse right at the end, puts it at an 18s TTK.
    1649/18 is 91 dps. A fair bit higher. Might look into it.

  • AlbionAlbion Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    What's your weapon power and strength?

    I've been putting up about 104 to 120dps (total damage dealt/hunting trip duration) depending on stats across a 10-12minute log on a 6190 power weapon. 
  • MarunaMaruna Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭
    Albion said:
    What's your weapon power and strength?

    I've been putting up about 104 to 120dps (total damage dealt/hunting trip duration) depending on stats across a 10-12minute log on a 6190 power weapon. 
    238 effective strength / 5896 power or something.
    Went scoundrel to test some things, and wait to see the fury changes that were supposedly coming after today's nano/scoundrel stuff.
  • SagexSagex Member Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    so i have two questions, how do i capture what stance i'm going into to make it easier to know what combo is next and how are you guys aliasing your combos?
  • EMDAEMDA Member Posts: 32
    Your active stance is listed in your prompt and in the GMCP Char.Vitals.st. The game doesn't tell you which stance a move will bring you into until you actually shift into it a second or two after the attack, but it does list them in the AB files for Battleflow. If you don't want to hunt through the ABs I made a little list for my own use if you find THIS easier to reference. If you want some kind of reminder when you do an attack you'll probably want to make a trigger from the attacks to echo for you.

    People probably have a bunch of ways to handle combos. I have my bashing combo and a few others automated based on the stance drawn from GMCP. I also have an alias that works like "c abcd" where "ab" draws a two-letter battleflow move and "cd" draws a two-letter rage move.
  • SagexSagex Member Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    EMDA said:
    Your active stance is listed in your prompt and in the GMCP Char.Vitals.st. The game doesn't tell you which stance a move will bring you into until you actually shift into it a second or two after the attack, but it does list them in the AB files for Battleflow. If you don't want to hunt through the ABs I made a little list for my own use if you find THIS easier to reference. If you want some kind of reminder when you do an attack you'll probi 

    People probably have a bunch of ways to handle combos. I have my bashing combo and a few others automated based on the stance drawn from GMCP. I also have an alias that works like "c abcd" where "ab" draws a two-letter battleflow move and "cd" draws a two-letter rage move.
    i wish i was that smart. 
  • EMDAEMDA Member Posts: 32
    Do you use Nexus or Mudlet?
  • SagexSagex Member Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
    EMDA said:
    Do you use Nexus or Mudlet?
    nexus 
  • EMDAEMDA Member Posts: 32
    THIS pastebin has a link to a kinda-slightly old version of my Nexus system if you want to make that work for you - it has hypertension bashing w/o tracking for bloodsinge and a commented-out version for the swiftcut -> wound -> rupture pattern if you like that instead, as well as some healing included, and it will override your F1-4 keys with enabling bashing, kith suffuse, kith windshape, and disable bashing respectively. The 'Multi Combo Alias' has all the two-char combinations for the attacks and I take no responsibility for them being hard to remember!

    If you have any issues with it you can just send me a message on the forum. I haven't looked at it too thoroughly but I should be able to look and fix anything wrong with it in a couple hours.
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