Engineer feedback, round 2

2

Comments

  • AristaArista Posts: 59Member ✭✭
    Fury judgment isn't really worth using at all, yeah. Nanoseer's is great. Though, it has a 10 second CD and engineer's doesn't. 
  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 140Member ✭✭✭
    @Rkansas

    If Netflix is to be believed, Voltron involves having multiple mechs combine into a single super mech. (I looked it up to be sure I was using the right reference, cause I never watched Voltron)
    Crorr
  • RazzyRazzy Posts: 27Member
    edited January 13
    Very much low priority, but the projector isn't terribly useful at the moment because it doesn't change the ever-present map, at least on Nexus (I don't use mudlet so I have no idea there). Since it only really seems to affect people that use screenreaders, and I imagine making it change the map would be a pain, would it be possible to swap it over to some kinda portable cover thing? The carrybot mentioned having a forcefield so it could probably use one and not be totally out there.

    If it WOULDN'T be a huge pain to make it mess with the map then doing so would be swell, though I feel this would be a bit weird since I doubt the map is based on sight in-universe.

    An option for removing UAVs from homeport was mentioned earlier in the thread, but would it also be possible to make a toggle for the login auto-homeport? Having to stash half my bots somewhere out of the way every time I experience a disconnect is a bit jarring, and I'm sure some others feel the same.

    EDIT: There's a total possibility that I'm completely wrong and the projector just doesn't affect the person that placed it, but I've never actually noticed anyone getting bamboozled by one.
    Feraluna has called for the honoring of Razzy for the following reason: somehow setting Reynolds on fire, killing someone, and then calling for her own besmirching.
    Satomi
  • IndiIndi Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭
    I'd happily lose projector entirely in favour of being able to do more surveillance type stuff with UAVs. It's a weird ability and I can't think what the intention ever was. 

    If there is a desire to have engineers fool people for whatever reason, then maybe if it could project fake cover, or make it appear that the engineer is taking cover behind a different cover to what they're actually behind.
  • MarunaMaruna Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭
    I think you're mixing skills up, because Lightwall doesn't do that in any other game.
    Darios
  • RkansasRkansas Posts: 136Member ✭✭
    I have now been an Engineer for a couple of days and I actually like it over Scoundrel. However, I don't see projector being useful at all and UAVs don't really do anything either. Now what i'd like to see happen is that UAVs be more like a few of the falcon abilities for the Runewardens in Achaea. Like have the UAV seek out a player if they are on the same planet, Asteroid or Station. UAVs to follow targets. UAVs able to circle above you and be able to detect enemies, a specific target, faction or simply anyone that gets within three locations from you (i.e the same distance of a QPC).

    I also would like the HUD goggles to be wearable because it seems weird that you can't do that already. 

    I also would like BOT LIST and TURRET LIST ALL to show how much longer they have before they decay. I don't know if our stimjector shows it's lifespan or not, if not then I think it should. Same with anything we make that decays over time.

    Also it would be nice to be able to send our carry bot to go retrieve turrets or workstations if they are in the same area as you. Well, as long as they are not carrying a turret around. You'd have to BOT TURRET STOP before sending them off to get something to bring back if you already have them BOT TURRET.
    (Scatterhome): Cal says, "We're called Scatterhome after what everybody does at the end of the night when it's time for someone to pay the bar tab."
    (Scatterhome): You say, "Which by my calculations, it's your turn to pay."
    (Scatterhome): Brantar says, "That's what my calculations have come to."
    (Scatterhome): Paavo says, "My math adds up to that, yeah."
    (Scatterhome): Cal says, "Bastards."
  • bairlochbairloch Posts: 373Member ✭✭✭
    Rkansas said:
    Satomi said:
    I still fully support the idea of our trans bots skill being a voltron-esque move. I would call my a Mobile Weapons Platform (NO IT IS NOT A BEAST!) :P
    Not to give away my ignorance to some things, but what is a "voltron-esque move"?
    Voltron was 5 lion bots that came together to form a much larger robot. So the idea here is that our trans move (final skill in Bots) would be to combine our bots (possibly not UAVs as that would be odd) into one giant bot with the functionality of all the others.
    SatomiRazzy
  • bairlochbairloch Posts: 373Member ✭✭✭
    Hey, we've got a thing in Lusternia called Acquisitio where we just pick up everything in the room.
    Any chance we could have a setting with our carrybot where it would do that, up to it's capacity? Maybe "hoard"? It would have to be able to on/off as some folks probably don't like picking up other's junk when they die. But It'd be a nice little bit to have.
  • AnnesaniAnnesani Posts: 21Member
    bairloch said:
    Hey, we've got a thing in Lusternia called Acquisitio where we just pick up everything in the room.
    Any chance we could have a setting with our carrybot where it would do that, up to it's capacity? Maybe "hoard"? It would have to be able to on/off as some folks probably don't like picking up other's junk when they die. But It'd be a nice little bit to have.
    I feel like that would be an issue when it comes to quest items, though the game may have solved this by denying people the ability to interact with items unless they have the quest flagged. What sort of things do you need to be picked up that don't already go to your inventory?
  • bairlochbairloch Posts: 373Member ✭✭✭
    junk. I don't always realize that someone else has died here and left their junk. be nice if my guy just took it all.
    And that issue exists in Lusternia as well, but everyone uses Acquisitio.
  • IndiIndi Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭
    In my opinion, a boring and useless ability. I'd rather not waste dev effort on it. But maybe that's just me. 
  • KaedokKaedok Posts: 25Member
    Personally the extreme ease with which all of my bots and turret are killed, and the massive amount of time it takes to re-build them in combat turned me off the class. Two of your skillsets can be completely removed in a few rounds of combat with minimal effort, and gadgets alone don't feel strong enough to justify it. I would suggest bots follow a similar paradigm to priest/luminary angels/seraphs from aetolia/imperian/achaea and be untargetable entities.
  • MinionMinion Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭
    Kaedok said:
    Personally the extreme ease with which all of my bots and turret are killed, and the massive amount of time it takes to re-build them in combat turned me off the class. Two of your skillsets can be completely removed in a few rounds of combat with minimal effort, and gadgets alone don't feel strong enough to justify it. I would suggest bots follow a similar paradigm to priest/luminary angels/seraphs from aetolia/imperian/achaea and be untargetable entities.
    I don't know the class well enough yet but turrets are an area control method similar to lusternia druid/mage. I would say that if someone can use a balance or two in taking down a turret, that is a balance or two they are not striking you. Learning to take advantage of that is going to be where you need to focus.

    Bots, on the other hand should have some way to protect them for a short time or maybe an emergency quick rebuild. I agree that two skills should not become useless AND put you way behind if the tradeoff is out of proportion. IE: if the attacker comes out way ahead after destroying your equipment.

     The real trick to ent classes is finding the balance for destroying ents as a strat.

    Maybe a new use for UAV, since you can have multiples, is a cover for other bots. As long as a uav is present it must be destroyed before you can kill one of the higher priority bots/turrets? Just spitballing to get some ides rolling.
    Bobb
  • MarunaMaruna Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 14
    Inferno and Airstrike both 1 shot all of your bots at once (carrybot and tank, I think, take 2 hits from Inferno). The first can be interrupted, yes, but all it takes is 1 to go through and you're royally fucked. If a Fury sees you use repeat, they can freely inferno because you can't stop the repeat to interrupt it.
    Airstrike you have to crash pretty much the second it starts otherwise bye bye to your bots, since they aren't affected by cover (and cover is irrelevant anyway since you permanently have encroachment vs a Scoundrel). Even then it's not a sure thing, depending on how they time the airstrike.
    Give a barrier-esque ability to the UAV, 1 minute cooldown and blocks all incoming damage to your bots/turrets for ~6-7 seconds. Bots/turrets can't be used while the barrier is up, except to repair. Gives some form of counterplay to airstrike, and allows protection against random infernos if timed properly. Also halts the Engineer's offence momentarily. Long enough cooldown that there's still windows where the ents can be destroyed. The cooldown would be player-specific, not per UAV... alternatively, have the cooldown bot-specific but overload the UAV in the process, destroying it.
    Minion
  • IndiIndi Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭
    The class also doesn't really feel/play like an ent or pet class. The bots don't passively attack; they just enable a skillset of active abilities. That is, a list of important abilities are gated behind the presence of 4 bots.

    The parallel to angel/seraph that kaedok made is a good one. Bots are more like an angel and less like the old woodlore animals or domination entities, where:
    • killing the bloody lemming was a critical strategy
    • taking advantage of the free time while the other person killed the lemming was also a critical strategy
    Angel/seraph was never killable because without it - no more sap. No more absolve,  etc. Basically, the angel was half of the class and a bunch of abilities were gated behind its presence.

    If someone kills the carrybot, goodbye interrupt. You guys are saying it goes down in 1-2 hits and that aoe attacks can take them all out a the same time as well. Each of the 4 combat bots has critical abilities.
    Kaedok
  • KaedokKaedok Posts: 25Member
    I wish I had a log of my spar last night with Vorn. He used the nanoseer ability that allows him to redirect a portion of his damage to everything in the room, dropped a single vacuum sphere, and hit me with 2 or 3 rounds of health dps and my entire entourage and turret were dead. My only "counterplay" was to leave. Failing this, 2/3 of my skillsets were removed in mere moments. Feelsbad.
  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 140Member ✭✭✭
    @Kaedok That sounds like the norm, since it seems everyone but maybe Scoundrel has a massive AOE that can just wreck your bots.
  • kaeuskaeus Posts: 14Member
    Honestly, I've never liked entity driven classes when they are things that can just be killed. The entity has to either be powerful enough to justify it's ability to be killed, or be easy enough to recover without losing too much momentum. Balancing that always feels like a nightmare.
    EMDA
  • TyeTye Posts: 127Member ✭✭✭
    Scoundrel has airstrike.
    Eukelade gives you a peck on the cheek.
  • ThessiaThessia Posts: 60Member
    On a FIVE MINUTE cooldown.
  • IndiIndi Posts: 184Member ✭✭✭
    Also IEDs can aoe, depending how they're set off.
    I think that is what gritblast does as well, if you don't have an IED primed.
    And outgunned in gunslinging.
    I assume cavein hits bots.


  • AnnesaniAnnesani Posts: 21Member
    Is there a reason that there can't be more than one turret active in a room? Does this then mean that engineers are balanced around two skill trees and not three when it comes to bashing and anything group-related? 
    Zack
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 337Member ✭✭✭
    For PVP, I think engineers are the "area-control" type class, so it's reliant on dismantling others' turrets when necessary, to make space for your own.

    In hunting, I think turret + bot claw is the same TTK (time to kill) as plain bot claw (because claw does higher damage if it's not lugging a turret around), so if the area you're hunting is full of turrets, it's not a bad fallback.

    The main difference between turret + bot claw and plain bot claw is that the turret method relies more on passive damage as opposed to the more upfront route of plain bot claw. And that's not necessarily a bad thing - passive damage means that you still do damage even if you're lagging or disconnected. :)
    Mereas Eyrlock
    "They're excited, but poor."
    - Ilyos (August 2019)
  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 140Member ✭✭✭
    1 turret per engineer, max of 2 turrets.
  • AnnesaniAnnesani Posts: 21Member
    I think one of the issues is that Starmourn has opened this door to allow multiple attacks and methods to be used on mobiles (within reason - apparently I still can't SQUASH something, but other classes can use their instant kills). I haven't run the numbers, but is bot claw (plus bleeding) more effect than a Claw-Claw-Turret Control combo or using a junk jet plus turret control and finishing with a magnotron?

    The additional flexibility of the system probably is going to require additional flexibility from the players, but right now I'm still at a loss because other classes don't have to use different types of bullets or not be in the same kith stance, and so on when hunting in groups. 

    I'm glad clawing does more damage, but what if I don't want to claw or my strategy doesn't revolve around clawing? Shouldn't my junkjet or taser do increased damage (or provide an additional effect) to level the field when I don't have a turret deployed? 

    I'll still run the numbers, but am I missing something? 
     
  • MarunaMaruna Posts: 371Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 29
    None of the engineer kill routes have faster TTK than another. It's literally just preference on how you want to kill things.
    1. claw spam
    2. turret + claw spam
    3. turret + bot repeat claw on cooldown and junkjet while it's repeating (otherwise claw)
    4. turret + junkjet into magnotron finisher
    They pretty much all have the same time to kill. With maybe a 1s variance depending on bleed ticks.
  • MatlkaelMatlkael Posts: 337Member ✭✭✭
    I don't think most classes can use instakills on mobs, either. Nanoseers sure can't.
    Mereas Eyrlock
    "They're excited, but poor."
    - Ilyos (August 2019)
  • ThessiaThessia Posts: 60Member
    Only scoundrels can, and it's not any faster than just shooting something in the face. It's slower, in fact, by a large margin after some testing. The only advantage is that you can use two sticks and a rock to do pull it off because subsystem damage is static.
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