Except I've never once said consequence free. There's already rules in place for everything PK-related. I'll say it again nice and clear, just for you.
Just because you don't agree with something, that doesn't mean it's not there.
And no, my comment wasn't literally saying "fuck you" - it was implying jumping straight to issues, the second they kill you. It wasn't to "some people", but a general statement. Nice try, though.
eta: If you don't think what you described is a lynching system, and that it's legitimately something that belongs in a conflict-oriented any game whatsoever, then I'm just gonna sit back and take solace in knowing that you're never going to be developing for any sort of game in the foreseeable future.
What are the consequences for killing someone, outside of admin punishments resulting from issues? I'm legitimately asking, because as has been said, being open to more PK later is not a consequence for PKers, it's a reward.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
Literally no one has advocated a consequence-free pk system. I honestly don't know why that term keeps coming up. I don't have a vested interest in the subject - in over 17 years of playing IRE games I have been in combat (arena or otherwise) less than 10 times.
What are the consequences for killing someone, outside of admin punishments resulting from issues? I'm legitimately asking, because as has been said, being open to more PK later is not a consequence for PKers, it's a reward.
Not every consequence is negative.
I did something bad as a kid, I got sent to my room. Cool, I liked my room. Pkers participate in pk, you kill them back. They like PK so they don't overtly view it as a bad consequence. You don't like dying, so you think they should be harshly punished for killing you, regardless of the why. You lose exp from dying, they lose exp from dying. You seem to only view things that completely prohibit someone from doing something, as the only amicable consequence. That's not healthy for the longevity of the game.
As I said, just because you don't agree with something that doesn't mean it's not a consequence.
@Maruna I am sorry, I'll be a little clearer myself. I don't agree with you, I think you are wrong. The current climate is consequence-free, needing a so called RP reason is not a consequence. I have already seen trolls kill people within their own faction and nothing happens to them, and their RP reason was their ass wasn't being kissed in the right way.
I also see you are beginning to degrade to personal attacks just because you don't like my ideas. Okay.
Again I find it interesting that people would hate their pkilling actions track, after all it only becomes a lynching system when the majority of players don't agree with your actions and so called RP reasons. Even some RP consequences for trolling is considered too much huh?.
Imagine thinking that lynching systems are a viable longterm source of quality control in a video game. Imagine thinking that people doing something you don't like, or agree with, is automatically them trolling and obviously trying to piss you off. Imagine trying to not so subtly call out the admin in a game, by saying their rules aren't being enforced whilst simultaneously providing no actual evidence of that fact.
Nevermind, I'm obviously trolling. Still waiting for the proof of these things, though. Especially where people have supposedly been advocating for "consequence free pk".
I did something bad as a kid, I got sent to my room. Cool, I liked my room. Pkers participate in pk, you kill them back. They like PK so they don't overtly view it as a bad consequence. You don't like dying, so you think they should be harshly punished for killing you, regardless of the why. You lose exp from dying, they lose exp from dying. You seem to only view things that completely prohibit someone from doing something, as the only amicable consequence. That's not healthy for the longevity of the game.
As I said, just because you don't agree with something that doesn't mean it's not a consequence.
Yeah, but from the point of view of the one who was killed, that seems like a terrible deal. Not only did you lose marks and experience, your killer got to get yours plus enjoy whatever fighting came out of it.
And let's not pretend only those who enjoy PK get killed.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
There's also the potential for you to get in trouble with your/the victim's faction to consider as a pk-deterrent. They probably don't particularly like people being killed for shoddy reasoning, and enemy status is there for a punishment, or whatever other punishment they see fit to mete out.
Yeah, but from the point of view of the one who was killed, that seems like a terrible deal. Not only did you lose marks and experience, your killer got to get yours plus enjoy whatever fighting came out of it.
And let's not pretend only those who enjoy PK get killed.
Sure, to the person being killed it might not be an amazing deal. There's things in place to stop it though, like not pissing someone off (hint: pissing people off just because, is a reason for them to kill you. It's a petty reason, but it's a reason). PK is 100% opt-in barring certain individuals like Dragonite.
I was, admittedly, surprised that there's no sort of 'Assassin' system in Starmourn. Maybe that's a plan for later, give Lawless people something to do (also give LAWLESSWHO so you don't have to honours everyone).
People are far too obssessed with "what if"s and anecdotal things to back their ideas, rather than assessing how things actually are, when it comes to talking about these things.
There's also the potential for you to get in trouble with your/the victim's faction to consider as a pk-deterrent. They probably don't particularly like people being killed for shoddy reasoning, and enemy status is there for a punishment, or whatever other punishment they see fit to mete out.
This, too. Pretty sure there's people in every faction right now, that'll happily go out of their way to go and slam kills into people like Dragonite if they act like assholes all the time. It's perfectly fine to ostracise people like that, you don't need a hard-coded system for it, though, given it's few and far between.
Let's see. Consequences can include, being killed, being labeled an enemy to a faction, being seen as an enemy IG from the person you killed rather than a neutral party or ally, and much more. It's a RP game, be creative god dammit and inspire to have a world of rich conflict, and history. I'm certain there will also be a bounty system eventually too, this is open beta!
If you think being a villain doesn't ever catch up to you in an IRE game be it through RP or otherwise, then you have never played a villain.
Edit: Also, you're not going to die very often if you don't go around stirring shit up or involving yourself in conflict. If you don't want conflict, don't join conflict. It's a sacrifice you have to make if you would rather preserve your marks and xp. Just because a handful of trolls are screwing around on day one and PK'ing randoms while admin time is occupied elsewhere doesn't mean the current PK system is unviable, especially when all these other IRE's are doing just fine with the same system.
I guess I can "kind of" the see the point of view of players here that are new to IRE. They haven't seen all the asshat pk'ers eventually get perma-shrubbed (i.e. banned) over the years. Maybe they think this sorta lawless open beta environment is how its going to be when the smoke clears.
Idk, but more often I see emotional non-comms talking a mountain of conflict-provoking shit to a pk'er then issuing the second after they get smoked.
Pk'ers typically invest a ton of money for lessons and arties. When sensible pk'ers start seeing the real consequences from losing issues progressively getting worse, they nearly always back off. If not they look like a bush. Maybe in Starmourn they will look like an aggressively malfunctioning drones, who knows.
I've been told not to respond to someone so they don't get riled up, and then get killed by that person for ignoring them. "Don't stir crap and you won't get killed" is a weak response when literally any sort of response (or no response, even) can be taken as instigation if a PKer really just wanted a kill.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
I've been told not to respond to someone so they don't get riled up, and then get killed by that person for ignoring them. "Don't stir crap and you won't get killed" is a weak response when literally any sort of response (or no response, even) can be taken as instigation if a PKer really just wanted a kill.
No response cannot be taken as a reason. Nor can "any response whatsoever" be taken. You seem to have a very grossly negative view towards PK.
Again who gets to decide they are acting like assholes, under what authority and rules are they deciding that the punishment fits the crime?
Basically some people will not be kissing certain asses in a proper manner and there will be some trolls at higher level who will want to do something about it. There is nothing that stopped people from committing intra-faction killing already and you can even walk up to someone and start attacking in a starting station only two rooms away from the cloning room without ever getting any shit for it. It boils down to who has a higher level and who has more OOC friends logged in. That is it.
I'm more than fine with PK, if it's consensual on both sides. In Achaea, knowingly joining a shrine-defiling group means you're going to get PK'd. In Imperian, entering a shardfall area means you're going to get PK'd.
What I have a problem with is when someone gets killed because they said "I like pineapple on pizza" and another person decided to take offense. Yes, that's intentionally ridiculous as an example. And in other IRE games, one death for something as silly as that is fine. Not for Starmourn, though, where even just one death can potentially cost hundreds, if not thousands, of marks.
Mereas Eyrlock "They're excited, but poor." - Ilyos (August 2019)
Again who gets to decide they are acting like assholes, under what authority and rules are they deciding that the punishment fits the crime?
HELP PK
eta note: I will add that 'being an asshole' does not necessarily mean they're breaking rules, however. Everyone has a different view on what's considered 'asshole behaviour' - when it comes to PK related things, however, HELP PK is your answer.
Basically some people will not be kissing certain asses in a proper manner and there will be some trolls at higher level who will want to do something about it. There is nothing that stopped people from committing intra-faction killing already and you can even walk up to someone and start attacking in a starting station only two rooms away from the cloning room without ever getting any shit for it. It boils down to who has a higher level and who has more OOC friends logged in. That is it.
HELP PK to see that this very thing breaks those rules, and then HELP ISSUES. Particularly if it is, indeed, 'trolling' as you say. Despite having a rather warped understanding of the term, I will give you the benefit of the doubt here.
The amount of factually incorrect assertions in this thread is staggering. I'm beginning to understand it isn't a complaint about a mythical "consequence-free pk environment" but rather a complaint that being a dick has consequences. If you get killed by faction mates at this point for something you said, I'm gonna say that's on you 99% of the time. Again, I'm not a PvPer, but I've said a lot of bitchy things to people IC and no one's come after me yet. If/when they do, I knew the risk when I was saying things that might piss them off.
@Maruna HELP PK is an OOC rule that is being clearly abused because it can be so subjective. You are missing the point.
You want to justify that there are RP consequences and that a person needs to have an RP reason before engaging in it. Where as I am reminding you being labeled an asshole as you've mentioned yourself is subjective and as I've seen, the reasons are silly and allow people to kill someone just because someone else was perceived of being 'rude'. Thus a person can decide to kill someone for stupid reasons WITHOUT any consequences to them, not even a peep. This has currently happened. As I've mentioned before, having to resort to ISSUE so that admins can investigate and decide how stupid that reason was is a terrible idea and will continuously be putting admins at odds with one side or the other, just for the simple reason that people disagree and will think they are in the right.
Being able to kill someone for a stupid reason (even if its only once as per the rules) only enables people and their friends to troll others.
No, I consider the 1% of other cases collateral damage to be handled on a case by case basis.
Pretty much this. You're not going to listen either way.
1) Read HELP PK and judge for yourself. 2) Interact with the person and find out their reasoning. or 3) Issue it and let admin decide, and realise it's now out of your hands the minute you file the issue. OR 4) PK them back / have friends PK them back. Darios outlined it pretty well above.
There are IC ways to resolve things. It does, however, require not being petulant in your approach to things. There's a reason you should wait a few minutes before engaging with someone who killed you, if you think they had 0 reason to.
Considering the flimsy reasons for murdering others I've seen and not a single consequence in sight, i think that ISSUE command is going a more usage in the future, especially as we eventually move out of beta. This is the pk environment you will eventually get since there is no in-game scrutiny or consequences for pk, with every other pk will result in a report to the admins.
Okay, I know some of you won't even understand this in the slightest, but I am going to add my view on this in hopes that it gets through. I was big in PvP in my main MUD for almost 2 years. I wanted to get into it in Achaea, but after some time and actually trying it out a couple of times, It was just to complex for me to feel competent in PvP. Not that I was ever that good at PvP in my main MUD, but the PvP in the other IRE games just didn't have the right feel for me.
Now since I have been in SM I have died I think three times to PvP, all of which in my opinion where good RP reasons and I did put myself in the position to to get attacked. Now for someone just running up and PKing me outside of PvP situations has never happened to me, even in the other IRE games. I believe the reason that it hasn't is because I understand how to interact with others in an RP manner. Now, if by chance someone does PK me, if I think hard enough I am sure I can come up with an RP reason, wither or not I like the reason isn't up to me. Yes, I would have lost xp and even some marks, but now I have a few options I can do. I could find someone that's around the same level or higher then the one that PKed me and I know is decent at PvP and see about hiring him to take him out for me. Now if I think I can do it myself, then yes, I will go and take him out myself and might even leave him a nice little message on his mindism about what happened to those that mess with me or some retort like that.
Going right to making an ISSUE is not the right choice, not only does it take the RP out of the game, but it will make it so even those that don't PK not want much to do with you, since you are going OOC on an RP issue which also ruins peoples immersion into the game. This is a game with all walks of life. If you want a game where you don't get PKed, you can RP all you want, go join a chat room.
P.S read HELP PK and HELP ISSUE, thank you.
(Scatterhome): Cal says, "We're called
Scatterhome after what everybody does at
the end of the night when it's time for
someone to pay the bar tab."
(Scatterhome): You say, "Which by my
calculations, it's your turn to pay."
(Scatterhome): Brantar says, "That's what
my calculations have come to."
(Scatterhome): Paavo says, "My math adds
up to that, yeah."
(Scatterhome): Cal says, "Bastards."
You really can't seem to resist the urge to insult and attack me just because I disagrees with your point of view huh? I hope your attitude and approach is better in game. Thank goodness we have at least have ISSUE command I suppose but it ultimately just re-enforces my beliefs and arguments. Anyways @Maruna we disagree, it not a big deal, but let leave it at that. Peace.
Hiring someone to kill whoever wronged you also gives you the opportunity to get some of your xp back here, without a formal bounty system to do this for you. Have your hunter deliver their INR to you.
Hiring someone to kill whoever wronged you also gives you the opportunity to get some of your xp back here, without a formal bounty system to do this for you. Have your hunter deliver their INR to you.
Alternatively. Just cry on forums until admin implement some way where you can pay for a drone to scout out your INR, and liberate it for you then wind back your player death count by 1. Because screw RP, I wanna be able to play singleplayer and not deal with anything I do affecting me.
@Rkansas In the pk muds and games I've played, the stage is usually fair, with skill and game experience being the biggest deciding factors. In Intensive RP muds, you cannot just walk up to someone in a bar and kill them, from an OOC perspective, your character needed to have a good RP reason, and from an IC perspective they will be hunting as a criminal for breaking town laws, facing some IC consequences.
In this game we had someone who was a lowbie getting attacked by a person who was much higher level in a station with friends, who were within the same faction for what I consider flimsy reason (rude/didn't kiss ass) . This hasn't resulted in any consequence.
I don't really see this changing anytime soon so baring any in-game consequences you are just going to get more people submitting issues for pks, more people refusing to pk for good reason because people will be raising issues, or worse people refusing to interact just because of the risk for certain people to attack you just for sharing your ideas.
Perhaps in the future the play-base will organize itself to govern and set actual rules for this stuff within its faction, it might look quite like a lynch mob at that point, but until then pkilling is unfortunately consequence free outside OOC issue.
Edit: Yes I agree that the low level person working hard, investing time
and ooc resources to someday get their 'revenge' is an option for certain people too.
Comments
Just because you don't agree with something, that doesn't mean it's not there.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
Imagine thinking that people doing something you don't like, or agree with, is automatically them trolling and obviously trying to piss you off.
Imagine trying to not so subtly call out the admin in a game, by saying their rules aren't being enforced whilst simultaneously providing no actual evidence of that fact.
And let's not pretend only those who enjoy PK get killed.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
If you think being a villain doesn't ever catch up to you in an IRE game be it through RP or otherwise, then you have never played a villain.
Edit: Also, you're not going to die very often if you don't go around stirring shit up or involving yourself in conflict. If you don't want conflict, don't join conflict. It's a sacrifice you have to make if you would rather preserve your marks and xp. Just because a handful of trolls are screwing around on day one and PK'ing randoms while admin time is occupied elsewhere doesn't mean the current PK system is unviable, especially when all these other IRE's are doing just fine with the same system.
Idk, but more often I see emotional non-comms talking a mountain of conflict-provoking shit to a pk'er then issuing the second after they get smoked.
Pk'ers typically invest a ton of money for lessons and arties. When sensible pk'ers start seeing the real consequences from losing issues progressively getting worse, they nearly always back off. If not they look like a bush. Maybe in Starmourn they will look like an aggressively malfunctioning drones, who knows.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
What I have a problem with is when someone gets killed because they said "I like pineapple on pizza" and another person decided to take offense. Yes, that's intentionally ridiculous as an example. And in other IRE games, one death for something as silly as that is fine. Not for Starmourn, though, where even just one death can potentially cost hundreds, if not thousands, of marks.
- Ilyos (August 2019)
- Ilyos (August 2019)
2) Interact with the person and find out their reasoning.
or 3) Issue it and let admin decide, and realise it's now out of your hands the minute you file the issue.
OR 4) PK them back / have friends PK them back. Darios outlined it pretty well above.
Now since I have been in SM I have died I think three times to PvP, all of which in my opinion where good RP reasons and I did put myself in the position to to get attacked. Now for someone just running up and PKing me outside of PvP situations has never happened to me, even in the other IRE games. I believe the reason that it hasn't is because I understand how to interact with others in an RP manner. Now, if by chance someone does PK me, if I think hard enough I am sure I can come up with an RP reason, wither or not I like the reason isn't up to me. Yes, I would have lost xp and even some marks, but now I have a few options I can do. I could find someone that's around the same level or higher then the one that PKed me and I know is decent at PvP and see about hiring him to take him out for me. Now if I think I can do it myself, then yes, I will go and take him out myself and might even leave him a nice little message on his mindism about what happened to those that mess with me or some retort like that.
Going right to making an ISSUE is not the right choice, not only does it take the RP out of the game, but it will make it so even those that don't PK not want much to do with you, since you are going OOC on an RP issue which also ruins peoples immersion into the game. This is a game with all walks of life. If you want a game where you don't get PKed, you can RP all you want, go join a chat room.
P.S read HELP PK and HELP ISSUE, thank you.
(Scatterhome): You say, "Which by my calculations, it's your turn to pay."
(Scatterhome): Brantar says, "That's what my calculations have come to."
(Scatterhome): Paavo says, "My math adds up to that, yeah."
(Scatterhome): Cal says, "Bastards."