Additional clarity around scripting requirements

ArcherArcher Posts: 80Member ✭✭✭
One of the things I really liked about Achaea was how much scripting was required.  Now before everyone lynches me, please hear me out. :)

Early in Achaea, the minimal viable product to be effective in PVP was an immense undertaking and players who adopted Vadi's system (a curing system that was once available for purchase, now free) had a significant advantage against those who didn't have it.  Now that server-side curing has been fully implemented this is much less of a concern, though still quite complex.

The fun part was the strategy around all of these curing elements.  For example, if I know the Blademaster had my legs and arms prepped, and broke both of my arms, I could apply to my legs preemptively to minimize potential prone time.  This is a risk that can open me up to serious counterplay, but against the typical opponent or in the arena it was a devastating defense manoeuvre. This is a piece that was not built in to the default curing system.  This only one of many examples, and part of the game was understanding how different people cure in different situations, and then abusing those openings.

My concern around the comments that "Less scripting will be required and wetwiring will handle everything!" is because there was a lot of room for creativity within both the curing and offensive tools we were given as players.

With the above in mind, I suppose my question could be summed up to the following:

  • Will there be a significant amount room for creativity in regards to PVP strategy?

Note for those not familiar with Blademaster PVP: The most common Blademaster win is by preparing various sets of of limbs (head/torso/arms/legs) to one strike from breaking, then break arms/head+torso to force a curing application that had a long cooldown, then prone them at the same time as breaking their legs while this cooldown was in effect to keep them prone, impale them, cause lots of bleed by twisting the sword in their gut, and finally insta-kill (the instant kill required high bleed).  If I applied to my legs the moment my arms were broken, and the blademaster followed up with a leg break after breaking arms, my cooldown would've been used to get out of the prone instead of curing arms. The broken arms could then be taken advantage of by a skilled Blademaster by transitioning in to a different win condition.
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Comments

  • DPierreDPierre Posts: 23Member
    this is exactly what I hated about most MUDs and play them less than I want to.
    bairlochPaintedGoblinBillytheCid
  • kaeuskaeus Posts: 14Member
    Coming from someone who personally coded multiple systems when i played Aetolia, the switch to curing being done in game was kinda nice.

    I've got no clue how complex the offensive side will be for PvP, but even on the more simple classes in other games there was plenty of room for scripting on that side of things to help give you the best information.

    My hope is that even if we have wetwiring, we have the ability to tweak how it does what it does. 
    ArcherZoot
  • RkansasRkansas Posts: 136Member ✭✭
    The issue I had with Achaea was the complex nature of PvP, it was so complex that even with the Vadi's curing system I couldn't make good enough settings to handle the ability attack/defend skills. So many poisons, plus what limb to hit/protect. I just couldn't keep track of it all nor could I remember it all. Even if I had an alias that I could choose all those options, I couldn't remember what letters to hit for which option. I don't like having a limited options when I am sure others will have something even better then mine just because they can script/code better then myself.  You don't so much complex PvP to get the creativity you want. 
    (Scatterhome): Cal says, "We're called Scatterhome after what everybody does at the end of the night when it's time for someone to pay the bar tab."
    (Scatterhome): You say, "Which by my calculations, it's your turn to pay."
    (Scatterhome): Brantar says, "That's what my calculations have come to."
    (Scatterhome): Paavo says, "My math adds up to that, yeah."
    (Scatterhome): Cal says, "Bastards."
  • MinionMinion Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭
    I much prefer the idea that people will be able to get in on ground level and not be a master coder to be top tier in this game. If you want the more complexity, no offense, but go elsewhere. IRE has four other games with moderate to deep complexity in their combat structures. We need one that doesn't require a Computer Science degree just to effectively cure even with server side curing.

    MUD gaming in general does not have enough of a player base at this point to make yet another difficult to play effectively game. We need to move in a direction that is friendly enough that we can pull in players that wouldn't normally enjoy a game like this. I've tried to bring in dozens of friends and acquaintances to MUDing over the last decade I've played and very few have stayed because of the entry requirements. 

    Besides the fact that in order to be fully equipped with the skills you need to survive in top-tier place you have to put money into the game, you also had to pay someone to be able to cure yourself effectively. That's insane. For most people this is hobby not something they want to sink hours of work into just to play. I get that some people like the challenge but that's tiny percentage of the folks that would enjoy the game if it weren't so damn complex.
    bairlochDevinaEzBreezyBillytheCid
  • TectonTecton Posts: 686Administrator Starmourn staff
    To further answer the question, there's very little configuration in terms of wetwiring, you can just change your overall priorities (health over afflictions etc.) 
    MogarcheQueanBillytheCid
  • ArcherArcher Posts: 80Member ✭✭✭
    Quean said:
    [...]

    I've been poking around Discord and this forum for a while now, and I do hope that Starmourn will be able to satisfy both of those needs: it will reward ingenuity and effort put into mastering the game, but will not rely on programming skills as a base requirement to even enter competitive PvP. 

    Nailed it 100%!  I'm not asking for the scripting elements to be hard, I also agree that the barrier to entry is immense for the uninitiated.
    I'm asking for the depth and creativity to be available.  "Easy to learn but hard to master" is what I would hope for, and if the devs are able to strike that balance they'll have a winning product in my eyes.

    If everyone is a top tier combatant in a simplistic PVP system, then no one is, and the PVP is why I play.
    QueanTravelerQitorien
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 466Administrator Starmourn staff
    Archer said:
    Quean said:
    [...]

    I've been poking around Discord and this forum for a while now, and I do hope that Starmourn will be able to satisfy both of those needs: it will reward ingenuity and effort put into mastering the game, but will not rely on programming skills as a base requirement to even enter competitive PvP. 

    Nailed it 100%!  I'm not asking for the scripting elements to be hard, I also agree that the barrier to entry is immense for the uninitiated.
    I'm asking for the depth and creativity to be available.  "Easy to learn but hard to master" is what I would hope for, and if the devs are able to strike that balance they'll have a winning product in my eyes.

    If everyone is a top tier combatant in a simplistic PVP system, then no one is, and the PVP is why I play.
    Ultimately, there's no such thing as a PvP system in a MUD that can't be automated to be provide an advantage, unless the system is so basic and so undemanding that even the very worst user can easily perform just as well. And now consider for a moment that even a game as simple as tic-tac-toe would see an advantage in automation. People will screw up sometimes. The automation won't. 

    And so, clearly, there can never be a system in which automation can't provide some advantage unless it's literally even more basic than tic-tac-toe. Rock-paper-scissors? Good automated systems (with the benefit of data from lots of past games played against humans) beat people even there. There's no point in trying to make a MUD where automation -can't- provide an advantage, unless the entire thing relies on free-form conversation between players or something similar.

    ArcherMogarche
  • SqueakumsSqueakums Posts: 196Member ✭✭✭
    Because of what Aurelius said regarding the futility of trying to make automation not a part of combat, it makes sense that those players best at coding will naturally rise to be top tier combatants. I think this is healthy in a MUD,  and probably an inevitable part of the game's design.

    A good compromise that also works for people like @Minion or @Quean (I'm part of this category too) is to still have that high skill ceiling, but have low barriers of entry. With concepts like wetwiring being a core part of the game's design, I am optimistic about Starmourn hitting that sweet spot. The most important part, then, is having enough people actively participating in lowbie PvP of this kind. We might not have a great chance against somebody who has spent hours perfecting their systems, but we will be competent enough to have good, exciting fights against each other. 
    MalashQueanQitorienMinion
  • DraosDraos Posts: 20Member
    The best system for combat/RPing that I've encountered was on SW:ANT (Star Wars: A New Threat). It was a MUSH that ran for many years. The system was definitely more MUSH leaning than a traditional MUD system, but it had elements of both.

    Essentially, each character would have a sheet of skills. You'd have attributes, then the skills beneath. I believe it was a D20 system. So if my attribute, strength, was 3D+1, all related skills would start at 3D+1 (like a kick, for instance). It was significantly more costly to raise attributes versus skills, but it could be a good strategy depending on your goals.

    Anyway, so you'd get into a fight. I'd roll for my kick (3D+1). That would roll to a particular channel and show the output only to me (the actual die value, but others in the area would see the level) and judges (volunteers who would judge combat situations). I'd get the roll return, which would break it up by number into levels (Very easy, Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard, etc.). Based on that, I'd then RP taking a kick. 

    The next person might roll for their attribute of perception. Based on that, they either see the kick or not. Then they can roll for block, or evade, or parry, all depending on their skills, strategy, and items (they'd need a sword equipped for parry, as an example). So let's say they block, that means it will hit (versus an evade, which would seek to avoid it all together). 

    So they roll block and it's higher than my kick, meaning, successful block. But let's say it's lower and my kick connects past the block. Then I get to roll my strength attribute to determine the force of the kick. They do the same to counter the force of my kick, taking into account any armor or mitigating factors, and the damage is then determined. 

    It's a MUSH, so we didn't have HP per se, but if they RPed kicking me in the knee and it connects with a VERY HARD strength roll, and the reciprocating strength roll was a weak, you can basically assume that person is going down and likely has some kind of injury. 

    I'm sure some aspects of this are already incorporated into the combat system for this MUD, but I really miss the RP elements of fighting where it wasn't just emotes and outputs scrolling by in a fraction of a second, where you're just wailing away until someone or something dies. I liked the story part where every experience was truly unique as you worked out the story with those present (using the judge as needed to arbitrate/mediate). It'd be fun to try and make a framework tight enough to where a judge would be almost unnecessary and the rest could be worked out as you go with other people. 
  • MinionMinion Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭
    Here's the thing, you may be automated in your combat but people will figure that out pretty quickly. So, sure, you may be the best automator but no one will fight you and if they do, they're either testing out their own automation or they're going to bring enough friends for your automation to not matter. At least, that's what I hope will happen. 

    Honestly, I think the majority of people that want to get into PVP in a MUD do not want to have to code. They'll put in the time and effort to learn how to manually build strategies and teach themselves muscle memory. Over the last decade I've played, I was able to do this with no coding ability and without any automation. I was not "top-tier" but I was effective where I wanted to be.

    I don't understand how it is enjoyable to play a game by pushing one button and letting your computer do the rest. I get that it takes skill to code an offense but I just don't see how it's fun to play a game against people that way. Honestly, I think I represent the majority of people who play games in general.  We play to challenge our own understanding of things and test the limits of our perception and skill. Feel free to play "push-one-button-to-win" games but realize you're going to get lonely real quick.
    DevinaDPierreBillytheCid
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    The enjoyment, for some, would come from figuring out how to get to that "push one button" stage. Learning combat to the point that you can create attack routines and basic intelligence to handle combat. Also combat seems to shift over time as patches are done and new strategies are figured out. So adaptation will only really happen once they go back in and rework the relevant parts of the code.

    Also, being honest, the main reason I'd consider it personally is the overload of combat, I think I've seen comments about windows in the span of like... seconds, which does lead to stuff like macros that check the targets vitals and make you act based on that (like if you have a 50% health insta-kill, sending that command rather than an attack).

    Oh also like... thinks that are dull/monotonous or crucial to get right will end up scripted, Lusternian examples being demesnes where you need to cast stuff at specific intervals for stuff to work right or like the Wiccans who have a large entourage that you can sync up with a relatively simple script which gives a slight edge in that you can make them all attack at once when you send the attack command. (Rather than ticking separately and you could be waiting a little while for the first tick.)
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • QueanQuean Posts: 87Member ✭✭✭
    Villanox said:
    The prevalence of "one button" offenses is, from my experience, largely inflated.
    I've never met a one-button offense, and that's not what I would be worried about. What I strongly disliked in Achaea was: "Until you have automated affliction curing, pipe smoking, venom coating, tactical farting and siege insults, you have no reason to show yourself in combat, because every combo will put you out of fight." But, as it has been stated many times before, it seems like Starmourn is going to be free from this plague.
    Starmourn Launch Countdown:
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    ArcherBillytheCid
  • VillanoxVillanox Posts: 112Member ✭✭✭
    Quean said:
    Villanox said:
    The prevalence of "one button" offenses is, from my experience, largely inflated.
    I've never met a one-button offense, and that's not what I would be worried about. What I strongly disliked in Achaea was: "Until you have automated affliction curing, pipe smoking, venom coating, tactical farting and siege insults, you have no reason to show yourself in combat, because every combo will put you out of fight." But, as it has been stated many times before, it seems like Starmourn is going to be free from this plague.
    Automated affliction curing, pipe smoking: svof or wundersys (wundersys is harder to use) or heck, serverside curing
    Venom coating: basic aliases

    The coding requirements to get into combat really aren't as bad as everyone says they are.
    MogarcheArcher
  • QueanQuean Posts: 87Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    They were when I was playing. Back then, free systems were not available and serverside curing was not yet a thing. The pressure to have a fully coded system successfully drove me away from PvP.

    EDIT: Whether they were easily obtained or not is beside the point. I don't want a game in which, in order to access crucial elements of the experience, you need to install another program. In combat, I want to enjoy making tactical decisions only. For me, it's like you'd log into World o Warcraft and see all the models (items, terrain, characters) standing still, and developers saying: "Hey, you want them to actually move? You can script the animations any way you like! Or purchase an animation system prepared by other players!" If PvP is a core game component, I want to be able to access it, fully aware that people with good tools will have an edge over me. But no more than an edge.
    Starmourn Launch Countdown:
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    BillytheCid
  • SairysSairys Posts: 215Member ✭✭✭
    Villanox said:
    The biggest bit of scripting I see is just quality of life stuff, outside of curing systems which won't be needed in Starmourn. Rather than typing out horrendously long commands, I can tap a few buttons and execute an attack. The prevalence of "one button" offenses is, from my experience, largely inflated.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there had been something for Moondancers in Lusternia a few years back, mostly because the strat was something like... launch fae, throw these hexes x seconds after the first command to time them with the fae, at this point they should be stuck in sleep, start draining mana, toad, stomp, done. But that's mostly cause it's, in theory, just linking like two macros together.

    I feel like the most common scripts would probably be auto-bashers and the separate chat-window one for non-nexus clients.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • ArcherArcher Posts: 80Member ✭✭✭
    I've scripted the crap out of my offense, but it is nowhere near a "one button machine," and anyone touting such a system is often easily beaten by someone who both knows what they're doing and how to script it up, IMO.  What it does is dynamically apply afflictions, and then I input manual commands for things I want the system to do while it's running, like throwing sigils, moving, changing curing priorities, flying away - loads of stuff, really, just now I don't have to worry about timing my attacks with the right afflictions.

    Note that I didn't know LUA when I started playing Achaea, some 8 years ago, but I wanted to learn it and got to a point where I can do anything I want with it.  No classes, no daily coding drills, no other coding history.  Just have to want to do it.  I didn't even get in to combat until about 4 years ago.

    To answer a question I saw somewhere; the fun part is tinkering, some people like pulling an engine apart to polish the ports and the carbs for that extra bit of oomph.  Getting to that point requires intimate knowledge of whatever it is you're working on and the tools that you have at your disposal, and that's the fun part.  You then get to see your machine push that through.  Even things like creating a super cool GUI is a ton of work but so rewarding when it's done.

    Doesn't mean I'm going to run around and autodestroy everyone, I'm not claiming to be the best at coding or PVP, but when people get frisky I get to whip out the infinity chancla. :D
  • GarrickGarrick Posts: 18Member ✭✭
    I'd like to speak for all the non-coders of average to below-average intelligence and say the new system sounds great. And I can also say with confidence if the system seems too simple for the master coders that they will still find a way to exploit the combat system in some way to grind me in to a fine powder despite wetwiring. Then I'll be back in here like, "WE WERE TOLD THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN."
    bairlochArcher
  • IndiIndi Posts: 177Member ✭✭✭
    @Garrick
    If there is less benefit to automating everything, then it doesn't matter if some people still do it: you'll still have a fair chance at winning.
    With combat speed is reduced to 3 second rounds and curing not being millisecond-dependant, you'll have time to choose your attacks and occasionally press one of the 5 keys for mending.

    You'll still need some scripting, but it is hopefully mostly related to presenting information (modifying the prompt, gauges in the UI, highlighting important lines etc) . If combat rounds really are ~3s and opponent affliction tracking is not more accurate by script than by eye, then both types of player will be on even footing.


    BillytheCid
  • KaguyaKaguya Posts: 34Member ✭✭
    I think players who expect the game to be balanced so that non-coders will have the same advantages coders have are being unrealistic. The bottom line is that any amount of automation or quality-of-life scripting you create will give you a competitive lead to someone going full-manual and typing everything out.

    As someone who's used plenty of automation and scripting in the past, it always annoyed me when players would give up or refuse to fight someone because they had settings. If someone puts in the time and effort to improve their gameplay and have an advantage over other players, then more power to them. They studied their shit and are reaping the rewards.
    Mudlet: Ōtsutsuki Interface
    "In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order."
    ArcherMogarcheZoot
  • IndiIndi Posts: 177Member ✭✭✭
    There's a difference between not using any scripts, and using scripts without being full auto.

    I don't think anyone expects to be able to run telnet.exe and compete; but being able to choose every attack I make with a keybind, and select which wetwiring mend to use, and when, with a keybind, while still competing on a level playing ground? That my ideal, but some of the IRE games require full automation (specifically the one I have invested the most into, of course :( )
    DevinaBillytheCid
  • WyldeKardeWyldeKarde Posts: 141Member ✭✭✭
    From my limited PvP experience in Achaea (and Lusternia long ago), half of being good at PvP is using appropriate highlights on important notifications and actually suppressing as much of the scrolling wall of PvP text to not display as possible.  Otherwise, the sheer volume of information makes it hard for me to understand what I should be focusing on.  With the (hopefully!) slower pace of combat I will be dead in minutes instead of seconds.  o:)
  • LindhriveLindhrive Posts: 10Member
    I do wonder, now - will there be server-side queuing? That seems like it'd be the biggest requirement that I don't actually know how to do myself.
  • TectonTecton Posts: 686Administrator Starmourn staff
    Yes, it will automatically queue a command for you if you run it while off balance.
    WyldeKardeLindhrive
  • zacczacc Posts: 100Member ✭✭✭
    Since it's automatic, will entering a new command, while a queue is already in place, refresh the queue or add to it?

  • TectonTecton Posts: 686Administrator Starmourn staff
    Will overwrite your queued command.
    Quean
  • QueanQuean Posts: 87Member ✭✭✭
    Tecton said:
    Will overwrite your queued command.
    I'm glad. Otherwise it would have been a proper mess.
    Starmourn Launch Countdown:
    https://countingdownto.com/?c=2341194
    Zoot
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