Certain Attacks

Montem

The sly cania's have a wind up attack now and when they do it I don't think the wind up is long enough because in some situations there is no way for me to prevent it and it will kill me everytime I don't.

See below:
https://imgur.com/Lj0wZEf

WyldeKarde

The same thing happens with other wind-up attacks -- they tend to be 2s-3s which is less than one balance for a lot of classes. For the instant kill wind-ups, they really need a 7s wind-up to allow a class like Fury to still try and interrupt since they need to change stances before they can.

Maruna

WyldeKarde said:

The same thing happens with other wind-up attacks -- they tend to be 2s-3s which is less than one balance for a lot of classes. For the instant kill wind-ups, they really need a 7s wind-up to allow a class like Fury to still try and interrupt since they need to change stances before they can.

No they don't, they can use Fever. Needs to be around ~4 seconds, so if the attack starts right after you use balance, you can still interrupt it. Was horrible fighting any mob like that, seeing their attack start right as I hit them, knowing full well I was about to take a huge hit to the face because some genius thought it'd be great to have interruptible attacks be a shorter channel than your balance.

Squeakums

[cries in 3.75 sec balance] 

ekary

I don't know about making it take longer than class balance, then the attacks will never hit because a simple trigger will make you stop it every time. I think they need to just lower the damage of the power hits to be more appropriate to the level. Make it hit for a percentage of max HP, say 40%. That way if you miss the interrupt due to balance, you can still survive the hit as long as you didnt let yourself get too low. I think the power hits need to have an element of danger to them still, and they should have the threat of a kill if you have bad luck.

Tye

Award for vaguest thread title goes to: @Montem

Squeakums

I disagree @ekary .

I think "RNG instakill" is a bad mechanic for something as commonplace as bashing. I just don't find that kind of situation fun at all to play against. I attack, see the windup, and know I'm just dead because of bad luck and no amount of skill at the game can save me. I don't think that makes for very good gameplay, and my solution would just be to never fight against those mobs. I am guessing (though I might be wrong) that's not what the developers intended. 

Setting up a trigger to respond to a specific action is kind of what this type of game is based on anyway. 

Darios

Squeakums said:

I disagree @ekary .

I think "RNG instakill" is a bad mechanic for something as commonplace as bashing. I just don't find that kind of situation fun at all to play against. I attack, see the windup, and know I'm just dead because of bad luck and no amount of skill at the game can save me. I don't think that makes for very good gameplay, and my solution would just be to never fight against those mobs. I am guessing (though I might be wrong) that's not what the developers intended. 

Setting up a trigger to respond to a specific action is kind of what this type of game is based on anyway. 

Whether or not I agree with his proposed change or not, did you miss the part where he said lower the damage so it doesn't just outright annihilate you?

Maruna

ekary said:

I don't know about making it take longer than class balance, then the attacks will never hit because a simple trigger will make you stop it every time. I think they need to just lower the damage of the power hits to be more appropriate to the level. Make it hit for a percentage of max HP, say 40%. That way if you miss the interrupt due to balance, you can still survive the hit as long as you didnt let yourself get too low. I think the power hits need to have an element of danger to them still, and they should have the threat of a kill if you have bad luck.

If you die purely because of something RNG completely out of your control to handle, then it's a bad mechanic. Mobs having RNG insta kills is fine... Having those insta kills with a windup that you mechanically cannot interrupt because of it being half the channel of your attack, is a shit mechanic. Not even sure how you could argue against that, if your (general your, not literally you) idea of handling those is "let the mob hit you first" then no. Fuck out of here with that logic.

If I'm doing a raid in a game that has a 2.5s global cooldown (fuck you FF14), and I'm expected to interrupt a skill that can happen at ANY TIME throughout the fight, that has a 1s cast time... I'm going to call it a fucking awful boss, considering the "Always Be Casting" mentality when it comes to raiding/dungeons. If I only die 1/5 times, or if I die 4/5 times because of it, isn't relevant. Borderline unpreventable RNG deaths should not be a thing.

Not sure I agree with "just lowering the damage" either considering just how hard some mobs hit at higher levels. Also an issue I noticed with the windmill drones, is the fact they roam. It was pretty shitty to have one walk in while you're off bal and having both of them start channeling their nuke at the same time. Even if you interrupt one, you're gonna be knocked low and probably die before you can crash.

Squeakums said:

Setting up a trigger to respond to a specific action is kind of what this type of game is based on anyway. 

Pretty much sums it up.

Aither

Honestly I don't get why interrupting mobs is supposed to be fun. At the least if they're going to hit that hard make it a generous time to interrupt it.

EMDA

Squeakums said:

Setting up a trigger to respond to a specific action is kind of what this type of game is based on anyway. 

Making a trigger that sets when a mob has last attacked to ensure you're only attacking when you'll have time to recover for a future interrupt falls under that description just as well.

Which isn't to say I'm fond of the wind-up attacks as they are, since with the cania it's definitely a die roll as to whether it hits you twice or you live. But with the approach Starmourn's attempting in opening up more skill interaction with mobs I'd be happier with something that forces a bit more adaptation than, "I want to attack all the time but also be able to interrupt the mob's big hit regardless of when the attacks come out".

Squeakums

@darios actually, yes. Somehow, I missed that entirely. I was a bit distracted--probably shouldn't post when I can't put more care into what I'm responding to.

@ekary lowering damage is a potential solution, but then there is very little difference to giving the mob a windup or just having every fourth attack do double damage. The whole point of the windup, to me, is that you can interact with it and stop it. Otherwise it might as well just be an RNG crit.

@EMDA that's a possible solution I hadn't considered at all, so thanks for bringing that up. I don't think it would feel too rewarding because of things like @Maruna 's ff14 example, but maybe it's not too different from an auto-interrupt trigger anyway. I do think that could be an acceptable system for a mob that is meant to be hunted in groups, though you'd have to make sure experience distribution is equal otherwise Ms. Interrupt Duty gets shafted due to lower damage contribution. I don't like it much (the whole only-attack-after-them), but it is certainly an alternative worth mentioning.

That all brings up a good point though. Are these kind of windup attacks worth having? I like having to set up triggers to deal with unique features of different mobs, even if they are a "set up once and forget about it" thing. Do you think the "attack after they do" setup instead is more fun? Once it's been set up, it requires just as little interaction from you as anything else, so it's not like the gameplay is affected much in the end. Something about the lost efficiency just rubs me the wrong way. 

Fyrel

My guess, and I'm not a game dev so I might be stupid, is that things like the windmill drones have these attacks partially as mechanics reminders for players in PvP. You get ubermurdered in Selubir, so even if you haven't been paying attention you're likely to ask on newbie "Yo, what's up with these windmill drones fellow youths? Sometimes they hit for stupidly ridiculous damage and that is wack", and then somebody kindly explains interrupts to you.

To that end it makes sense that they would actually bump up the channeling time so that you know for sure that you can interrupt them, even if it neuters the attack, because it makes it more of a teaching tool and less of a frustration gate. It should also be possible, in my opinion, to smack other mobs out of the room at will with things like bash and pushers so you can fight one at a time, and dodge these attacks in other ways like flying in case you haven't been investing your lessons wisely, but that's neither here nor there.

ekary

Might as well take out the big attacks all together, no point in having it if it would never hit.

Arista

It would hit if you don't know how to counter it or don't appropriately do so. The idea that anything that is possible to counter will always be countered and is therefore pointless is somewhat odd, since there'd be no point in pk, either, for example, if we just assumed everyone will always fight perfectly.

Making players have to learn how to counter it and get to the point of doing that effectively is the point of having the attacks.

ekary

No...that's not a good comparison at all as PvP is far more in depth aspect of the game. We are talking about one single trigger that negates an entire mechanic, you might as well take that mechanic out.

I am pretty sure every single person playing the game can make a simple trigger that would interrupt every wind up.

Montem

I think you'd be surprised.  Either way it still teaches people how to make the trigger and how to respond to attacks, which is beneficial.  I'll pass on having RNG decide if I have a 1500 mark debt.  Or I guess I could crash out every time I reach 75% health.  Wait no... that sounds awful.

I find it odd that anyone would argue the side of this that you are arguing @ekary

ekary

I mean all it does is just make one more thing to script in, add some strategy into tackling certain mobs that pose a danger of killing you instead of making a pointless mechanic that just causes us to grab a trigger line.

I would be fine with the mechanic just being taken out, I'm not necessarily saying kill people. I just don't think it is a good idea to have a mechanic that is completely negated by a single trigger.

WyldeKarde

I'm in the pro-variety attacks of attacks -- whether that be mobs that specifically hammer subsystems or have a wind-up attack/combo attacks.  Adding complexity to learning new bashing areas is great! 

For me, the biggest thing I would like to see is areas where stacked mobs don't all target the same thing (health/systems/afflictions) -- i.e., one mob is hitting you with subsystem or afflictions and the other is going after health.  This would avoid some of the instakill issues that I face anytime after about level 50 that two aggressive mobs end up in the same place.  The bots in Prugita hit for 1750+ damage sometimes without a wind-up and a stim is only 1060 health, so there is nothing to do but try and crash, fly, or just accept a death if you end up making a mistake.  This also makes anything with roving aggressive monsters in packs almost unplayable at higher levels without a large group.

ekary

Yeah, I would love to see more strategy from the top end mobs in an area. Afflictions, system damage, that kind of thing makes it a lot more interesting to bash. I still think that a one-trigger-mechanic is silly though.

Yalau

Is there some warning about the wind up other than a longer than normal attack time?  The windmill drones for example I can't see any.

ekary

Not sure about that particular mob, but there is a wind up message for atzaparaki fire blast and the worms rushing you. Take a close look at the lines a few seconds before the big attack, might be one you just missed.

Kax

The main issue I had with windmills is I'm a fury with not a lot of lessons invested, so my interrupt(s?) are tied to stance and rage windows. There's a few ways of sorting all that out, or I could just go stab a different kind of hapless creature for delicious ecks peez. 

Squeakums

Kith fever interrupts without a stance requirement, and I don't remember it being too deep down fulmination

Kax

Squeakums said:

Kith fever interrupts without a stance requirement, and I don't remember it being too deep down fulmination

Yeah that's been mentioned...I'm 95% sure I don't have it yet, but I can check at some point maybe.

Montem

The problem with Fury is the 3.5 second balance.  You do not have a chance to interrupt the attack. As show in the screenshot on my OP.