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Did engineer really need a 70% damage nerf to bleed?

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  • To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
  • edited December 2018
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
  • Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    So.... because 2 percent of the people who  used easy means to sky rocket in  level still have their levels and is fine  the 98 percent of people who now struggle it's fair? o_O 
  • Sagex said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    So.... because 2 percent of the people who  used easy means to sky rocket in  level still have their levels and is fine  the 98 percent of people who now struggle it's fair? o_O 
    If I understand the thread correctly... Some people were struggling to hunt at or above their level? Which means some people would therefore need to hunt below their level or group up? Which the only real consequence is they would be earning less experience per kill and level slower?
  • edited December 2018
    Jinresh said:
    Sagex said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    So.... because 2 percent of the people who  used easy means to sky rocket in  level still have their levels and is fine  the 98 percent of people who now struggle it's fair? o_O 
    If I understand the thread correctly... Some people were struggling to hunt at or above their level? Which means some people would therefore need to hunt below their level or group up? Which the only real consequence is they would be earning less experience per kill and level slower?

    No worries, it's more or less fixed now. But you don't seem to understand - engineer was never the choice class for trying to punch above your recommended level, and this nerf disproportionately affected engineers because they rely so much on bleed.

    Anyways.. I would caution you about hastily calling for nerfs. Any leveling nerf you ask for that affects us hardcore grinders, will affect you manyfold times more.
  • Jinresh said:
    Sagex said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    So.... because 2 percent of the people who  used easy means to sky rocket in  level still have their levels and is fine  the 98 percent of people who now struggle it's fair? o_O 
    If I understand the thread correctly... Some people were struggling to hunt at or above their level? Which means some people would therefore need to hunt below their level or group up? Which the only real consequence is they would be earning less experience per kill and level slower?
    i can't hunt in one area because the enemies are tanking most of my attacks even though my level suggests being in that area and the other has 6 people all hunting in in  other words i can no longer hunt because of the changes
  • I've given up on hunting. #forever17
  • Yalau said:
    I've given up on hunting. #forever17
    I feel you, I can't even get into design areas anymore because now 20 people are sitting there 
  • Sagex said:
    Yalau said:
    I've given up on hunting. #forever17
    I feel you, I can't even get into design areas anymore because now 20 people are sitting there 
    This is a kind of separate issue but one I feel for - the other IRE game I played had it too, although it was less of an issue because the playerbase there was top heavy.

    Why does IRE, designing MMO-like games, make zones that can barely support 1 or 2 active people in them...
  • ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
  • Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    the problem is those people at max levels do not get impacted by this. everyone else does! why put something in that punishes the majority it makes zero sense 
  • Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    Are you sure about that?

    Someone with a lot of spare time can put ~112 hours per week into levelling. Divide that into a more normal person's playtime... well, 112 hours could take them months. Increase the time required, and it becomes years.
  • Some areas already have much shorter (15 minutes) respawn timers compared to the standard in other IRE games (1 hour).  That just needs to be implemented across the board. This would go a long way towards making the levelling process smoother. The game has too many players for the number of areas in the game right now for the long respawn times.
  • BeepBoop said:
    Some areas already have much shorter (15 minutes) respawn timers compared to the standard in other IRE games (1 hour).  That just needs to be implemented across the board. This would go a long way towards making the levelling process smoother. The game has too many players for the number of areas in the game right now for the long respawn times.
    I would love the level 50 areas to be fixed so I can hunt again 
  • BeepBoop said:
    Some areas already have much shorter (15 minutes) respawn timers compared to the standard in other IRE games (1 hour).  That just needs to be implemented across the board. This would go a long way towards making the levelling process smoother. The game has too many players for the number of areas in the game right now for the long respawn times.
    They have instancing for space zones... The real solution is probably to use that for ground zones, too.

    15 minutes vs 1 hour is pretty irrelevant in the end. Both don't keep up/scale...
  • More dockable hunting areas you can get to via ship imo.  Asteroids, planets, etc.  
  • edited December 2018
    Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    A few important things you missed.
    1) Aringar got Dragon in ~3 years. Part of that was also because Achaea's level cap didn't start off at 100. It kept raising to sate people's desire to keep grinding.
    2) Achaea had significantly less worthwhile bashing areas to hit Dragon, for like the first 10 years of its existence (give or take). Every area in SM is worthwhile at the level bracket set for it. Nowadays you can hit Dragon in ~2 weeks if you're really willing to no-life it. That's also 25 levels more than Starmourn, though.
    3) Achaea has significantly longer respawn times on mobs than SM does, which made/makes #2 even worse.
    4) Mindset of developers and players alike have both changed significantly since then.
    5) You're conveniently leaving out just how much time the top5 people are actually spending bashing, compared to everyone else. (Top 5 right now is 75, 72, 70, 69, 63, with Arlixa #6 at 59)
  • If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
  • Shinonome said:
    Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    Are you sure about that?

    Someone with a lot of spare time can put ~112 hours per week into levelling. Divide that into a more normal person's playtime... well, 112 hours could take them months. Increase the time required, and it becomes years.
    Yeah that's how slow it was in Achaea, when I was like ~95 I would get .1% maybe .2% xp per hour, it was crazy slow.  And I hope for their own sake nobody is bashing 112 hours a week, even 12 hours a day is only 84 hours a week...

    Maruna said:
    Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    A few important things you missed.
    1) Aringar got Dragon in ~3 years. Part of that was also because Achaea's level cap didn't start off at 100. It kept raising to sate people's desire to keep grinding.
    2) Achaea had significantly less worthwhile bashing areas to hit Dragon, for like the first 10 years of its existence (give or take). Every area in SM is worthwhile at the level bracket set for it. Nowadays you can hit Dragon in ~2 weeks if you're really willing to no-life it. That's also 25 levels more than Starmourn, though.
    3) Achaea has significantly longer respawn times on mobs than SM does, which made/makes #2 even worse.
    4) Mindset of developers and players alike have both changed significantly since then.
    5) You're conveniently leaving out just how much time the top5 people are actually spending bashing, compared to everyone else. (Top 5 right now is 75, 72, 70, 69, 63, with Arlixa #6 at 59)
    1)  Sure it took him 3 years, but nobody had done it before because of how difficult it was, and 3 years is better than 1 WEEK, lol.
    2)  Agreed, I'm sure Starmourn anticipated such.
    3)  Agreed, but the current spawn times are still boosted because its the start of the game I believe.
    4)  Honestly I doubt the mindset of the Devs have changed much.  At the core this is Achaea in Space.  The players yes, players want everything NOW.  WoW is a great example of how that has devolved.
    5)  I don't think that matters really, the fact its possible to bash to max level in a week in a brand new MUD is ridiculous.


    Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    I totally agree if this game was WoW, or Assassin's Creed, or God of War.  But it's not and IRE has never been that way, IRE has always been the way of things take time, and a LOT of time to achieve something.  Not "LUL guis I grinded to max level in a week, what now?"  The way it looks now, I could grind from 1-75 in Starmourn faster than 95-100 in Achaea.
  • Citrus said:
    Shinonome said:
    Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    Are you sure about that?

    Someone with a lot of spare time can put ~112 hours per week into levelling. Divide that into a more normal person's playtime... well, 112 hours could take them months. Increase the time required, and it becomes years.
    Yeah that's how slow it was in Achaea, when I was like ~95 I would get .1% maybe .2% xp per hour, it was crazy slow.  And I hope for their own sake nobody is bashing 112 hours a week, even 12 hours a day is only 84 hours a week...

    Maruna said:
    Citrus said:
    ekary said:
    Jinresh said:
    To be fair, the nerfs were appropriate and should probably be steeper. No one should be even close to max level after ONE week; regardless of how long they play. What is the point of allowing players rush through content? If the thought is that, "well after they hit max level, THEN they can focus on things like RP and space flight" Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Gotta ask yourself this question though: "Who am I to tell someone how they should enjoy a game?" I understand your feelings toward how it should be played, but a lot of us are here to go ahead and get all the leveling grinds out of the way then settle into other aspects of the game. They did need to scale back being able to bash out high level areas, and they did a good job of that, but nerfing damage because some people don't like that we are out here grinding our asses off? That's kinda silly.
    I don't think that's the point he was making, this is still an open beta and yet people are almost max level.  In Achaea it took like 8 years before the first person hit max level.  It was actually a challenge.  If people already almost there then the leveling is waaay to fast.
    A few important things you missed.
    1) Aringar got Dragon in ~3 years. Part of that was also because Achaea's level cap didn't start off at 100. It kept raising to sate people's desire to keep grinding.
    2) Achaea had significantly less worthwhile bashing areas to hit Dragon, for like the first 10 years of its existence (give or take). Every area in SM is worthwhile at the level bracket set for it. Nowadays you can hit Dragon in ~2 weeks if you're really willing to no-life it. That's also 25 levels more than Starmourn, though.
    3) Achaea has significantly longer respawn times on mobs than SM does, which made/makes #2 even worse.
    4) Mindset of developers and players alike have both changed significantly since then.
    5) You're conveniently leaving out just how much time the top5 people are actually spending bashing, compared to everyone else. (Top 5 right now is 75, 72, 70, 69, 63, with Arlixa #6 at 59)
    1)  Sure it took him 3 years, but nobody had done it before because of how difficult it was, and 3 years is better than 1 WEEK, lol.
    2)  Agreed, I'm sure Starmourn anticipated such.
    3)  Agreed, but the current spawn times are still boosted because its the start of the game I believe.
    4)  Honestly I doubt the mindset of the Devs have changed much.  At the core this is Achaea in Space.  The players yes, players want everything NOW.  WoW is a great example of how that has devolved.
    5)  I don't think that matters really, the fact its possible to bash to max level in a week in a brand new MUD is ridiculous.


    Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    I totally agree if this game was WoW, or Assassin's Creed, or God of War.  But it's not and IRE has never been that way, IRE has always been the way of things take time, and a LOT of time to achieve something.  Not "LUL guis I grinded to max level in a week, what now?"  The way it looks now, I could grind from 1-75 in Starmourn faster than 95-100 in Achaea.
    Again, if they did this at the start I would be ok with but enough people are already there at max or close max so all you do is hurt others 
  • edited December 2018
    All I have to say is that sitting at level 14 I feel like I'm getting left in the dust. Unsure of what to think about that. I sorta feel like you need that high level to be relevant in your Faction. 
  • That's true of every multiplayer game though Jericho. Although space stuff doesn't really care about your level (but getting a good ship does because it costs marks and mark income goes up with level increases)
  • I played a lot the first two days but have since been dealing with some awful personal shit that's mostly kept me from playing much. Had that not happened I'd easily have logged 150 hours by now.
    I'm gone.
  • Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    With this line of thinking, why even have levels? Lets get rid of all time requirements (for the players sake of course) and just start everyone at max level. That way they can really focus on how they want to play the game and not worry about that pesky grinding.
  • edited December 2018
    Jinresh said:
    Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    With this line of thinking, why even have levels? Lets get rid of all time requirements (for the players sake of course) and just start everyone at max level. That way they can really focus on how they want to play the game and not worry about that pesky grinding.
    And if they like grinding? Believe it or not there are people who do. Why, exactly, does it matter to you what someone else does with their time? How does someone enjoying grinding more than you, affect what happens to you in any way? You don't wanna do 10-hour days grinding, that's cool. They do, and it's not really any of your concern.
    Citrus said:
    The way it looks now, I could grind from 1-75 in Starmourn faster than 95-100 in Achaea.
    No you can't. 95-100 in Achaea takes around ~13 hours of no-lifing.
  • Just need to point out that the new third place is a bot, which has probably been working non-stop like 24/7 

    Which... Could imply something isn't quite right with the people above.
  • Izrith said:
    That's true of every multiplayer game though Jericho. Although space stuff doesn't really care about your level (but getting a good ship does because it costs marks and mark income goes up with level increases)
    Oh I know. I just want to be useful and helpful, however my leveling progress is abysmal. 
  • Jericho said:
    Oh I know. I just want to be useful and helpful, however my leveling progress is abysmal. 
    It seems to follow some bizarre circular reasoning here in the forums. 

    I want to get to higher levels and nerfing experience gains is a little demoralizing.
    Response 1: Well you don't have to rush to high level, enjoy everything the game has to offer  

    Okay then. I want to enjoy PvP and cosmpiercers, but my health pool is tiny and I die super fast. 
    Response 2: PvP is not balanced around low levels, get to higher levels to play the real game. 

    Okay, but then it would be nice if I could get there without having to mindlessly grind for so long. Make the grind less mindless or make it faster. But recent changes move it in the opposite direction. 
    Response: see Response 1.

    The point has been made that this is not WoW or some other MMO, and the grind is supposed to take long. But there is a lot of good content you are essentially locked out of unless you commit to the grind.

    I love Starmourn and it is miles ahead in PVE than the other IRE MUDs I have played. I'm not going anywhere, and I don't want this to just sound like a whine. Sometimes it's difficult to get a conversation about this topic without getting stuck in that response loop--I feel like it is hard to provide the feedback that I want without it sounding entitled or offensive to somebody.

    Difficult mobs that give a lot of experience and don't die in 10 seconds are a better way to go about things, I think. It is more fun to struggle against things with a trick like windmill drones than to kill rockhoppers for 30 levels, in my opinion.
  • Maruna said:
    Jinresh said:
    Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    With this line of thinking, why even have levels? Lets get rid of all time requirements (for the players sake of course) and just start everyone at max level. That way they can really focus on how they want to play the game and not worry about that pesky grinding.
    And if they like grinding? Believe it or not there are people who do. Why, exactly, does it matter to you what someone else does with their time? How does someone enjoying grinding more than you, affect what happens to you in any way? You don't wanna do 10-hour days grinding, that's cool. They do, and it's not really any of your concern.
    Citrus said:
    The way it looks now, I could grind from 1-75 in Starmourn faster than 95-100 in Achaea.
    No you can't. 95-100 in Achaea takes around ~13 hours of no-lifing.
    Sarcasm and nuance is apparently lost on some.
  • Maruna said:
    Jinresh said:
    Darios said:
    If someone chooses to burn through an area of content in a week, thats up to them. Its a better alternative then adding redundant time requirements that just make people do something they don't enjoy/stop playing in the downtime.
    With this line of thinking, why even have levels? Lets get rid of all time requirements (for the players sake of course) and just start everyone at max level. That way they can really focus on how they want to play the game and not worry about that pesky grinding.
    And if they like grinding? Believe it or not there are people who do. Why, exactly, does it matter to you what someone else does with their time? How does someone enjoying grinding more than you, affect what happens to you in any way? You don't wanna do 10-hour days grinding, that's cool. They do, and it's not really any of your concern.
    Citrus said:
    The way it looks now, I could grind from 1-75 in Starmourn faster than 95-100 in Achaea.
    No you can't. 95-100 in Achaea takes around ~13 hours of no-lifing.
    Ahahahahahaha I WISH it only took 13 hours to get 95-100.  I already said before, back when Achaea was a thing, that I was getting .1% to .2% per HOUR.  13 hours of .2% per hour is 26%, NOT EVEN ONE LEVEL.

    If it only takes 13 hours to get 95-100 is Achaea now then it has been changed MASSIVELY.


    And on the topic of people liking grinding, I find that VERY hard to believe.  Pushing the same one button over and over again killing the same mobs over and over again in a loop for 8+ hours...   You've already lost your sanity if that is in anyway interesting or fun to anyone.
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