Decheeran descriptions EDIT: Really a question of pervasive Earth knowledge in the galaxy

Michlistus

So I was mulling over describing a Decheeran character, and realized that the earth has been missing for...921 years it looks like (Earth disappearance to present day). Given I don't really have a strong working knowledge of astrobotany, I realized I may be at a loss for how to describe the character.

Will botanical knowledge of long-gone Earth be present? Or will I have to find more clever ways of describing bark. As an ex botanist, a common name helps elucidate the imagery for me. For example, a Corkbark Fir has a spongy type bark with numerous grooves, whereas an Aspen - what I am assuming the Decheeran reproduction system is based on looking at the character art/propagation methods for the species - would have a very thin outer layer with a sort of "dust" that comes off when you touch it. So it would be easier for me to be like "Stands 12 feet tall with Aspen-esque features" vs "Stands 12 feet tall with thin bone-white bark covered in hardened ebon nodes"

Granted I know I can be descriptive enough to try and work around these issues when it comes to character descriptions but I was wondering if it would be acceptable to reference earth-like flora in general.

EDIT: After thinking it over, the description isn't really the issue. It's not understanding how pervasive the working knowledge of earth really is. Scatterhome was created about 90 years after the earth's disappearance and all working knowledge of the human race is limited to 1200 incarcerated on a mining colony. Certainly some of Earth's best come from there (All hail Maddox, Lane, and Castillo) but historical knowledge is certain to have dropped off. And it seems like the Der'em are the only race to have encountered Earth prior to it's disappearance. Will Earth knowledge be limited to what the current galaxy's memories of nearly a thousand years past? Will I know something akin to the commsphere existed as internet on Earth? I guess I don't need specifics really, just a working idea of how to approach the disappearance of the only planet I actually understand in an RP sense.

Michlistus

Furthermore, how does the disappearance of earth in general affect RP in terms of galactic knowledge of the planet?

bairloch

Well, this one looks aspen

But this guy's more... mangrove?

I've been planning to do something crazy like a rainbow eucalyptus or something.

Michlistus

@bairloch

Welcome, Grove brother

And yeah, that's where the idea of all this stemmed from was that artwork haha. I was like huh, that's an Aspen..but...can I say Aspen? Like I said, it's not a big deal when it really comes to the descriptions, but it really begs the larger question of, "How much does the galaxy really know about Earth?"

bairloch

Well, and that begs the question "How many species had we killed off by the time the Der'em showed up and made it all go *poof*?" I mean, did we even have trees? Did humans only see plants in museums and rich peoples' houses? If so, then the criminals on Callisto may never have seen a tree in their lives, so the word Aspen would be even more meaningless.
Also, how many of our fellow players could describe an Aspen, Oak, Shagbark Hickory, Sugar Maple, White Pine, etc., etc. from memory? Aspen might be equally meaningless right now in 2018, sadly.
I'd go with straight descriptions.

Michlistus

Yeah, agreed. It's better writing exercise anyway.

Squeakums

It also helps those of us who are less botanically inclined 

Sure, I can tab out and Google what aspen looks like, but the description that mentions bone-white bark is a lot more immediately evocative of what you look like. 

Qitorien

This isn't directly related to botany, but more in general. I'm not sure if it's helpful, but it's straight from the mouth (fingers..) of Aurelius:

"As for Earth, it disappeared 921 years before the game opens, so it's not particularly fresh to Humans. They also have absolutely no reference material or media of any kind from Earth, so what Humans know about Earth today is purely based on whatever the Humans the Free Fleet kidnapped told others, accurately or not. At this point, there'd be no such thing as sounding English or French, for instance - those Earth-based distinctions would have long-ago disappeared."

source: From the desk of Aurelius.

Also, @Michlistus your Vote link is broken, by the way.

Michlistus

@Qitorien
Awesome, that's the answer I was looking for. Thanks!

Errant

I have found my fellow plant people, at least. 

bairloch

My avatar that I've had since day 1 hasn't  been enough of a hint?

Kestrel

So, I know trees don't have genders, but am I the only one who thinks that one of those tree-people depicted looks distinctly ladylike, and the other a little more on the rough side?

Michlistus

Kestrel said:

So, I know trees don't have genders, but am I the only one who thinks that one of those tree-people depicted looks distinctly ladylike, and the other a little more on the rough side?

Haha, yeah they do seem to have gender-specific features if missing the naughty bits. Interestingly enough, depending on the species, some flowering plants can have both sexes (i.e., monoecious reproductiive morphology). Personified, it makes me wonder if Decheerans from specific reproductive morphologies might have more or less androgynous features. So something andorecious (having only male flowers - produces pollen but no seed) might be described in a slightly more masculine manner.

That being said, it really is a translation of how we view our outer-selves as humans and tying that to trees. Aspen are dioecious (meaning male and female parts are on different plants - as well as clonal through root sprouting). Whereas we might look at an aspen and consider it more effeminate, there is nothing physiologically that would confirm this perception. Same with the ridges on an oak. We may see that as more masculine given the rough exterior, but oaks can are different sexed as well.

It's part of why I love this race so much. There are so many fun possibilities with how they actually function in addition to just looking badass.

bairloch

I'd have to disagree. If anything, they both looked "male" to me.

Alec

At the risk of it being an unpopular opinion, you can 100% use Earth words to describe your character because who's reading it is a human of Earth, and the point is to evoke imagery with the reader, not be 100% consistent with the in-game world.

Cubey

Alec said:

At the risk of it being an unpopular opinion, you can 100% use Earth words to describe your character because who's reading it is a human of Earth, and the point is to evoke imagery with the reader, not be 100% consistent with the in-game world.

Yes, very much this. Descriptions are OOC and aimed at the player. If a description is more clear or vivid by using terms that may not exist in-character, do not let that possible non existence stop you.

I remember an ancient argument where some people took offense that a character's skin was described as "chocolate" because chocolate didn't exist in-universe. That was ridiculous, let's not fall into that.

Aurelius

Alec said:

At the risk of it being an unpopular opinion, you can 100% use Earth words to describe your character because who's reading it is a human of Earth, and the point is to evoke imagery with the reader, not be 100% consistent with the in-game world.

This is always an interesting part of discussions about RP to me, because if it's ok to describe yourself using OOC words and concepts, why not do the same with speech and emotes? In both cases, they're initiated by a human of Earth, aimed at other humans of Earth, to communicate something between two real humans. The characters are figments, of course, but in-role they certainly aren't hearing English spoken to each other - none of them even speak English in Starmourn. 

Lhundrup

(Everything is in subtitles)

Squeakums

It's hard to draw the line somewhere, but there's a clear difference to me between "...with ridged bark like an oak" and "...with sharp facial features like Sylvester Stallone." Chocolate skin isn't as immersion breaking as something that directly references a place on Earth, eg. "East Asian so and so, or Middle Eastern blah blah", though clearly even the chocolate thing is a problem for some people.

I don't think it's a problem to mention the plant varieties like OP was asking, but I think a slightly more descriptive alternative is simply a better option. I might be wrong in assuming most people are as botanically illiterate as myself (and I'm a biologist, shame on me), but if the goal is clarity for the human on the other side of the screen, then it's a safer option regardless to describe and not just tell. I hope that makes sense. 

Michlistus

@Squeakums
Absolutely bud. I think descriptive is the way to go. This question has gotten me a few places with learning how we read descriptions from an IRL human-standpoint vs interact within an in-game context, and also where we are with earth knowledge. Definitely glad I asked heh.

Squeakums

It opens up an interesting conversation! I think the line is blurred a bit with accents, simply because it's a lot harder IMO to describe those. But the way I like to think of it is something along the lines of: 

"If this scene was taking place in a non-Earth sci-fi novel, how would these traits be described?"

In sticking to answering that question, I think I avoid any OOC references altogether. Of course, if somebody walks along and says they have a southern drawl and a Colgate smile, it's not like my day is ruined. I just try to avoid those descriptors personally. 

Xiru

If someone walks along and says they have a Colgate smile, I'm going to punch them in the teeth.

Michlistus

Syaja said:

If someone walks along and says they have a Colgate smile, I'm going to punch them in the teeth.

While I'm all for beating corporate sponsorship out of unwitting passersby, do Decheerans have teeth?

Squeakums

If you want them to, I imagine. A lot of the lore is young, and I recall reading somewhere that player input and activity will help shape it. So if you decide Decheerans have teeth and describe your rotting yellow maw, while bairloch decides the opposite, you're both correct. You've helped shape the lore and teeth is now an optional feature in Decheerans, like leaf beards. (I originally wrote bushbeards but that sounds awful so I changed it.) 

Alec

Aurelius said:

Alec said:

At the risk of it being an unpopular opinion, you can 100% use Earth words to describe your character because who's reading it is a human of Earth, and the point is to evoke imagery with the reader, not be 100% consistent with the in-game world.

This is always an interesting part of discussions about RP to me, because if it's ok to describe yourself using OOC words and concepts, why not do the same with speech and emotes? In both cases, they're initiated by a human of Earth, aimed at other humans of Earth, to communicate something between two real humans. The characters are figments, of course, but in-role they certainly aren't hearing English spoken to each other - none of them even speak English in Starmourn.

This is really good, and for some reason I draw the line between emote and speech.

Example:

Joe walks into the bar and emotes that his face looks aspen-like. Your character wouldn't then say "Joe, why the hell do you look so much like an aspen?" because while you directly experience the emote, your character doesn't.

Second example:

Joe walks in and says, "Aurie, I just feel like such an aspen." - your character might then go "Joe, what the hell is an aspen?" because what Joe is saying is something you and your character both experience directly.

/opinion piece

Xiru

Michlistus said:

Syaja said:

If someone walks along and says they have a Colgate smile, I'm going to punch them in the teeth.

While I'm all for beating corporate sponsorship out of unwitting passersby, do Decheerans have teeth?

Well, I wasn't being Decheeran specific here, but no idea! 

Zerva

You cannot convince me Sunny-D's recipe wasn't preserved and is being drunk by high society as an old earth vintage in wine glasses.

Also, I see no reason for destinction persay when it comes to a lot of words, unless it's a specific name/proper noun. Our languages are being translated by our augments are they not? In that case I'd figure saying "Birch tree bark" would just translate out to others as a name for trees of that type in the given language. Like how different cultures on earth use different words for the same animal. If a Decheeren has birch-like bark I'd say it's safe to assume Birches exist in some fashion, but the human language word for it is Birch even if it's not the exact same species.

Cubey

Aurelius said:

This is always an interesting part of discussions about RP to me, because if it's ok to describe yourself using OOC words and concepts, why not do the same with speech and emotes?

EDIT: Still a slippery slope argument but a moment after writing my post, I realized - I can think of several examples from my RP career when people used OOC terms and yet it wasn't immersion breaking or unfun. In fact the people who used those words were playing really fun and interesting characters! So, it all depends on a case by case basis.

There are no hard and fast rules when OOC terminology is acceptable and when it isn't. I definitely won't go around reporting or chastizing people if they let an OOC term slip or two. I might do that if they start spewing memes or compare themselves to Shrek or Sylvester Stallone, but that's because they're being stupid and disruptive, not because they're OOC.

Michlistus

Squeakums said:

(I originally wrote bushbeards but that sounds awful so I changed it.) 

Never change 

Qitorien

Syaja said:

If someone walks along and says they have a Colgate smile, I'm going to punch them in the teeth.

Challenge accepted.