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Character Gender

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  • annysannys Posts: 40Member ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Garrick said:
    I'll do my best to be respectful of everyone's unique designations but any time spent on developing an advanced gender identification system would be better spent on...literally anything else.
    Maybe, unless it's a draw for a subset of people who would otherwise not come. (Especially if the work involved is easier in the beginning, vs. wanting to do it "later") Not many would be affected, to be sure, but the playerbases here aren't exactly huge to begin with, so a few more could still be meaningful!

    It was my draw anyway, but I'm just an anecdote. I found a home in Lusternia, especially, for the acceptance I found there. It was very comforting to just be, and so I found a home away from home, especially on my Mary Sue characters. And I stayed long enough to spend money. But again, I'm just an anecdote.

    Whatever happens, I am sure people will be, by and large, tolerant. Or just ignored. Still a safe haven, either way. Having this feature could open up more than just my community though, other RPers would be able to mechanically play the same sort of character for sheer curiosity, if nothing else. Like it's an accepted part of the universe, even if RL politics still give us hell day in and day out.

    As long as people are trying to be fair, it will still be looked at as a safe community. It's the "you shouldn't even exist" comments that cause offense, not accidental misunderstandings. We know that happens, and why. You lot are (mostly) great people.
    SagexSairys
  • CenCen Posts: 47Member ✭✭
    annys said:
    As long as people are trying to be fair, it will still be looked at as a safe community. It's the "you shouldn't even exist" comments that cause offense, not accidental misunderstandings. We know that happens, and why. You lot are (mostly) great people.

    This is very true, however, I'd like to add that it can sometimes be very confusing when attempts to show acceptance are taken the opposite way. Then it becomes difficult to know exactly how to behave in situations, and people shy away from any attempts to try again. Especially when every attempt you make almost seems to be willfully misinterpreted. I suppose there are some people who are more easily offended than what is described above.

    A recent discussion has shown me this might be the case, so rather than getting slammed down further for trying to be helpful, I will simply say the following before leaving the discussion:

    I think it's great that they added the neutral race as an option, and with a good emoting system there are a lot of opportunities for diverse RP. If I could make one suggestion to Admin, it would be to consider the gender-swapping artifact from Aetolia as another alternative. It would probably open things up even more. 

  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23
    I think if other isn’t a default option, another race or two later offering variety would be nice? Other gender neutral races other than trees for those who view aesthetics as important in a text game. 

    Edited to add: I view aesthetics as extremely important in a text game so that’s not a dig or anything.
    annys
  • AffuritAffurit Posts: 9Member
     Cen said:
    Affurit said:
    They/Their is not grammatically correct for singular pronouns, so I'd have to disagree with that out of principles.

    I am afraid this is not entirely true. It is becoming increasingly more accepted to use third person plural as a neutral singular alternative. Not a new concept, but it has not been in wide-spread use since the 16th century. I looked it up, as I am a non-native English teacher and wanted to make sure I do the correct thing. (Backing this up with references: Merriam Webster, Collins cobuild, Oxford dictionary)
    I'm not entirely happy to have to say this, but it is quite true... It being used does not make it correct, just 'acceptable' and used. Noting that a practice has been in common use since the 16th century doesn't mean a massive amount when the standardisation of English began 2 centuries later!

    Your references do not back up the point, they actually discredit it, but point out famous people using 'They' in such a way. Merriam-Webster was the sketchiest of the ones you pulled up for a number of reasons, not least my stance and that of many others on their outlook towards language in general. Oxford admits openly that the word is used in a way that isn't right multiple times throughout.

    Shakespeare was a bit of a rebel when it came to language, pointing out him breaking a rule means quite literally nothing when making any point about proper usage!

    All in all, while I accept there's an issue here, as a native English speaker and British linguist, I think you'll find that a number of grammarians will probably be minorly triggered every time that dreaded they pops up in their text based game... 

    This isn't really a matter of tolerance or intolerance, but rather an issue that deserves a real solution, at least from my point of view.
    FoofFoof
  • CenCen Posts: 47Member ✭✭
    Affurit said:
    Oxford admits openly that the word is used in a way that isn't right multiple times throughout. 

    This isn't really a matter of tolerance or intolerance, but rather an issue that deserves a real solution, at least from my point of view.
    Straight from Oxford dictionary:

    "Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16thcentury. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing."

    This is a dictionary with a good reputation, I daresay, and it mentions people of contrary opinions. However, if you read the full text, in the end they recognize that it is a widely accepted use of this pronoun. 

    Personally, it irks me, because I consider it a plural pronoun (much like you), and I would rather use alternatives like he or she, said person, or similar, but I have to recognize that others use the above anyway and accept that. 
  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 71Member ✭✭✭
    As a person who has no real 'horse' in this race, it's kinda funny to watch the finer details of specific words being debated out. Hasn't the appropriation of words by groups of people been a recurring thing over the course of history?

    Also, since I'm speaking directly to people who have a focus on grammar and the like, my grammar is awful. I never really cared for grammar, growing up. I was more of a Spelling Bee person. Also, computers. I like computers.

    God, now I'm rewriting sentences in my head to flow better because it sounds awkwardly written.. STOP MAKING ME ACKNOWLEDGE MY TERRIBLE GRAMMAR.
    JeromMalashSagexMaygon
  • CenCen Posts: 47Member ✭✭
    You aight, 'tomi. <3
    MalashSatomi
  • SagexSagex Posts: 78Member ✭✭
    As a fellow bad grammar person, I'm just going to use my pew pew pew corrections in the game! hah!
    MalashSatomi
  • MalashMalash Posts: 98Member ✭✭✭
    I'm now imagining sonic weapons that fire terrible grammar at ridiculously-high decibels.
    SatomibairlochQitorienSagex
  • AffuritAffurit Posts: 9Member
    Cen said:
    Affurit said:
    Oxford admits openly that the word is used in a way that isn't right multiple times throughout. 

    This isn't really a matter of tolerance or intolerance, but rather an issue that deserves a real solution, at least from my point of view.
    Straight from Oxford dictionary:

    "Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16thcentury. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing."

    This is a dictionary with a good reputation, I daresay, and it mentions people of contrary opinions. However, if you read the full text, in the end they recognize that it is a widely accepted use of this pronoun. 
    Not to be particularly argumentative, but there are a number of commonly accepted grammar mistakes.

    The fact it's a revival from before the standardisation of English still doesn't mean a major difference.

    Language changes, but the day I see people strolling around referring to a herd of deer as deers is when I burn all of my qualifications. This, of course, including my British equivalents of the spelling bee certificates.
    FoofFoof
    Cen
  • QitorienQitorien Posts: 161Member ✭✭✭
    One thing that I believe that we can all agree on is that the English language is bad for a number of reasons. Haha.
    The real issue is that neither really do justice to real life. (I come down on the side of the singular neuter myself, though I'm not completely satisfied with it... That wasn't going to be an intended pun, but I'm going to roll with that anyway.)
    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN

    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates

  • CenCen Posts: 47Member ✭✭
    Qitorien said:
    One thing that I believe that we can all agree on is that the English language is bad for a number of reasons. 
    Imagine what it's like for non-native speakers. Nightmare, I tell you!
    Qitorien
  • MalashMalash Posts: 98Member ✭✭✭
    Actually does bring up a question: what language(s) will Starmourn humans speak by default?
  • kaykay Posts: 13Member
    Malash said:
    Actually does bring up a question: what language(s) will Starmourn humans speak by default?
    Nothing but 1980s slang.
    MalashSagex
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 289Administrator Starmourn staff
    edited March 3
    kay said:
    Malash said:
    Actually does bring up a question: what language(s) will Starmourn humans speak by default?
    Nothing but 1980s slang.

    SagexMalashCen
  • SairysSairys Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Affurit said:
    Cen said:
    Affurit said:
    Oxford admits openly that the word is used in a way that isn't right multiple times throughout. 

    This isn't really a matter of tolerance or intolerance, but rather an issue that deserves a real solution, at least from my point of view.
    Straight from Oxford dictionary:

    "Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16thcentury. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing."

    This is a dictionary with a good reputation, I daresay, and it mentions people of contrary opinions. However, if you read the full text, in the end they recognize that it is a widely accepted use of this pronoun. 
    Not to be particularly argumentative, but there are a number of commonly accepted grammar mistakes.

    The fact it's a revival from before the standardisation of English still doesn't mean a major difference.

    Language changes, but the day I see people strolling around referring to a herd of deer as deers is when I burn all of my qualifications. This, of course, including my British equivalents of the spelling bee certificates.
    I mean, did the singular they actually ever go away?
    Wiki provides a book title "An English Grammar for the Use of High School, Academy and College Class"  from 1895 which noted the common use of the singular they.

    The generic he is noted in the wiki page as largely being ignored and by the 1960s wasn't considered acceptable anymore. 

    It's awkward, silly, and sexist.

    Realistically, the singular they is perhaps one of the best examples of how language doesn't change.

    Someone centuries ago decided to make up a rule about how people should use english, that rule ignored the reality of how people natively used the indefinite pronoun and it has realistically never really fully replaced the singular they.


    I mean, if you need a fun story, there was a woman (Anna Johnson) who managed to register to vote prior to women getting the vote in New York under the logic that all masculine wording in the laws also applied to her. Of course, following this it was a case of "oh no, in that case 'he' refers to males only.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
    annys
  • AkaiAkai Posts: 6Member
    So, I poked a transgender support group I'm in for input from nonbinary members, and it seems like they'd be cool with simply being able to select 'they'. Accordingly, I'd suggest just letting players have a config option to select a pronoun set. Something like, 0-4:

    0: Per sex
    1: He
    2: She
    3: They
    4: It

    I will say, I use targetted custom emotes. I'm not going to stop just to support a character's gender. What I do in character SPEECH, however, will depend on the character and my own ability to remember.

    It's simple enough to defend limiting it to traditional pronouns as others have not been widely accepted, and tracking them would be far too much burden for a space game, and custom ones would be abused.
    Sairys
  • SairysSairys Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Akai said:
    So, I poked a transgender support group I'm in for input from nonbinary members, and it seems like they'd be cool with simply being able to select 'they'. Accordingly, I'd suggest just letting players have a config option to select a pronoun set. Something like, 0-4:

    0: Per sex
    1: He
    2: She
    3: They
    4: It

    I will say, I use targetted custom emotes. I'm not going to stop just to support a character's gender. What I do in character SPEECH, however, will depend on the character and my own ability to remember.

    It's simple enough to defend limiting it to traditional pronouns as others have not been widely accepted, and tracking them would be far too much burden for a space game, and custom ones would be abused.
    It's also presumably extendable, if the game is just referencing a number that matches up with a table then the limit would be on how many pronouns are wanted, and realistically the table could be added to later on.

    The Decheeran pronouns, in theory, could also be handled by it, if they're unique to the race they could just be a number others can't access and they can't access other numbers.

    Players, of course, wouldn't really see numbers just pronoun sets available maybe with an example sentence.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • AffuritAffurit Posts: 9Member
    Eh, the main point was that They is unarguably grammatically incorrect, regardless of common use. This is in the same way in which people use "Of" instead of "Have" in certain places. Most people don't pick it up and most people aren't going to care, but there are a few people who are going to intensely want to correct it.

    Calling the old generic term sexist when talking about gender identity is a bit of a strange one. After all, if were were all a He, as humans and gender didn't have specific pronouns, this wouldn't be a problem at all. I'm not sure what the statement here is about.

    Restricting language without offering a decent and accepted alternative is, realistically, not going to end well.

    It works fine, but doesn't seem particularly something to be desired...
    FoofFoof
  • SairysSairys Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Affurit said:
    Eh, the main point was that They is unarguably grammatically incorrect, regardless of common use. This is in the same way in which people use "Of" instead of "Have" in certain places. Most people don't pick it up and most people aren't going to care, but there are a few people who are going to intensely want to correct it.

    Calling the old generic term sexist when talking about gender identity is a bit of a strange one. After all, if were were all a He, as humans and gender didn't have specific pronouns, this wouldn't be a problem at all. I'm not sure what the statement here is about.

    Restricting language without offering a decent and accepted alternative is, realistically, not going to end well.

    It works fine, but doesn't seem particularly something to be desired...
    So the many who will be confused and try to correct "he" to they should be outweighed by the few that will not like "they"?

    Realistically, it has never been neutral though. The male is linguistically treated as the default human, the female is an exception. Like, androcentrism in language is something that appears well researched and it's shown that it leads to a masculine bias in society.
    Also, legally the masculine gender only refers to males and not females, as such it has been used to exclude Women from legal rights.

    And yes, I agree, Restricting language to the generic he, which has never been a decent and accepted alternative, has, realistically, not ended well.

    Just a quick google easily brings up various articles ranging from scholarly to social justice blogs that talk extensively about how the generic he doesn't work well and that change is desired.

    The primary reason given for a lack of change is the 120+ alternative gender-neutral pronouns have never gained the support the singular they just natively has.

    It's a stubborn refusal to accept reality at this point.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
    Traveler
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 289Administrator Starmourn staff
    Sairys said:

    The primary reason given for a lack of change is the 120+ alternative gender-neutral pronouns have never gained the support the singular they just natively has.

    It's a stubborn refusal to accept reality at this point.
    Random thought: In english, we don't have gendered nouns really, whereas in languages like Italian and Spanish, all nouns are either male or female. I'm studying Italian and it's a huge pain in the ass to remember all the rules around when genders of stuff have to agree with each other, and there are only two.

    I imagine that in countries where gender binaryism is baked into the language itself, it's going to be really hard to move away from solely male/female. They'd literally have to invent new vowels to do it in Italian, which I'm not sure is even really possible. We have it much easier in English.
  • SairysSairys Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Aurelius said:
    Sairys said:

    The primary reason given for a lack of change is the 120+ alternative gender-neutral pronouns have never gained the support the singular they just natively has.

    It's a stubborn refusal to accept reality at this point.
    Random thought: In english, we don't have gendered nouns really, whereas in languages like Italian and Spanish, all nouns are either male or female. I'm studying Italian and it's a huge pain in the ass to remember all the rules around when genders of stuff have to agree with each other, and there are only two.

    I imagine that in countries where gender binaryism is baked into the language itself, it's going to be really hard to move away from solely male/female. They'd literally have to invent new vowels to do it in Italian, which I'm not sure is even really possible. We have it much easier in English.

    Yeah, that's actually part of where the generic he came from apparently.

    They applied rules for gender in Latin (the article I've read says they had seven) to English, even though they're not the same thing.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 71Member ✭✭✭
    @Aurelius Or everyone can learn Hungarian. It's a language that has no real logic to it but works!

    EVERYON! Starmourn will be Hungarian Exclusive now! It's a genderless language! Mostly. (I picked Hungarian because I am bias)
    AureliusQitorien
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 289Administrator Starmourn staff
    @Satomi I'm half-Hungarian (Transylvanian to be more precise)! Alas, my dad, who was born in Transylvania and grew up there and in Hungary never taught me any beyond a few words. I'm very familiar with how it sounds, but that's about it.
    Satomi
  • MalashMalash Posts: 98Member ✭✭✭
    Positively goulash.

    I'm sorry.
    Satomi
  • CenCen Posts: 47Member ✭✭
    edited March 14
    At least Hungarian is related to Finnish, so it's not completely on its own. Have some nice Hungarian music!

  • SatomiSatomi Posts: 71Member ✭✭✭
    @Aurelius I want to say  I'm quarter-Hungarian, roughly:P Grandpa moved to the U.S. directly from Hungary, Dad was born in Illinois, and then I was born. I never learned Hungarian either, was tradition to send the children to Hungary to live with relatives for 6-ish months at a young age, so Hungarian would end up being their first language, more or less. My mom had a difficult time conceiving so when I was born, there was a lot of cling and it never happened.

    I dun blame her, but it'd be neat to be able to chat with my dad/cousins in Hungarian.

    But yeah. Bias :D
  • JeromJerom Posts: 44Member ✭✭
    I don't want to sound like an asshole, but I'm pretty Transylvania is in Romania, not Hungary...
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 289Administrator Starmourn staff
    Jerom said:
    I don't want to sound like an asshole, but I'm pretty Transylvania is in Romania, not Hungary...

    You don't sound like an asshole, but you're probably not aware that Transylvania was part of Hungary until 1916. Hungary has had a habit of choosing the wrong side in wars, and in WW1 Romania signed a secret treaty with the UK, France, Italy, and Russia according to which if they (the Entente Powers) won the war, Romania would get Transylvania and a couple other areas. That happened, and they got it. The Hungarians resisted with force, but eventually the Romanians beat them down and took Transylvania. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Transylvania_with_Romania

    Parts of Transylvania are heavily Hungarian though. Harghita County, where my dad was born and lived until age 8, is even now like 85% Hungarian and some consider the Székelys people (sub-people of Hungarians) who dominate the area to be the most Hungarian of Hungarians. They've been known to tear down street signs in Romanian and put them back up in Hungarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Székelys

    My dad's family left when he was 8 (sometime in the 1940s) to go to territory Hungary still owned because there was a lot of persecution of the Hungarians in Transylvania by the Romanians. 

    I actually visited Transylvania and my dad's hometown for the first time a few months ago. I'd been to Hungary multiple times, but never Transylvania. Boy, Harghita County, where he was born, is pretty rustic. We saw lots of farmers using horse-drawn wagons, for instance, and most of the streets weren't paved. 

    SatomiJeromMogarche
  • SairysSairys Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Obviously, Strine is the superior language :P
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
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