B.E.A.S.T.

RylekRylek Member Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
edited October 2019 in Feedback

B.E.A.S.T.s Yo


I’m going to be mostly addressing this from a non-pvp standpoint, as I feel like once the core of the class is properly built, pvp balance can be found fairly easily. Also, ground pvp more or less doesn’t exist right now, so it doesn’t seem like as high a priority as getting the “feel’ of this class correct.


I have Engineer as my second class, and I think that class FEELS great. Just awesome as shit. It has a few weird things like gadgets that say they’re worn, but you can’t wear them. Otherwise, overall, the theme of a future field engineer dude is there and it’s awesome as hell.


BEAST feels like a soldier to me, not a mech suit pilot. It kinda boils down to a few issues, but I’ll be going over basically all of the skills in each skillset, and offering suggestions I feel would improve the overall aesthetic. Going to add a new resource suggestion at the bottom.


Let’s start with SuitTech:

-This skillset makes me feel like for some reason this class started as a brawler. There are two takes on this. A) Mechs going into hand to hand combat is cool! (I feel like it’s a waste of everything but whatever, hulk on.) and B) From an Rp standpoint, none of the other classes should be able to withstand being in a melee brawl with a powered mech suit. So, unrealistic beyond the norm.

-Much of it also seems like it was balanced around limb damage, which was taken out at the start of beta with basically nothing given back in return. More or less making the entire tree feel gimmicky and bad.


Jumpjets: Basic flight ability, everyone has one.

Examine: This is described as a HUD readout. It pales in comparison to the Engineer’s HUD readout by a metric ton. I’m not saying they have to be the same, but improvements could be made here.

Support: Heal, everyone has one. I’ve been told this heals less than anyone else’s, but I’m not sure why that’d be. Heavy Armor is the one excuse I hear a lot, but armor doesn’t appear to DO anything right now. I can clear an area my level with zero armor on and it’s the same as with a full set.

Hotswap: This is a big issue with the class. We have SIX weapon slots. These weapons take longer to alternate through than ANY OTHER CLASS requires to wield/unwield a weapon. I’m not sure why the current idea is ‘you have more, so they need to take longer to use’. It’s not like this anywhere else, and the bonus to having these guns doesn’t exist to be worth punishing.

--Suggestion: Leave the system as it is, but make Hotswap a passive. Once you learn it, you’ve become good at operating your mech and can seamlessly alternate between weapons as you need it.

--Suggestion: If the malus HAS to exist, give a bonus to switching weapons to make the negative worth it.

Radar: Good skill, thematically accurate.

Propel: I’d be curious how many BEASTS use this more than once or twice when they first get it. It seems like an escape...except it can be simply interrupted. One of WAY TO MANY channels that do nothing but give your opponent free time to punish you.

--Suggestion: Remove the open skies requirement, remove the channel. Add a cooldown. Mech suits firing afterburners to dodge away is a thing, so it can stay.

Routing: Again, thematically cool. In practice? Meh. Most people will set it to one weapon set and forget about it forever.


--Suggestion: Not sure. Maybe add a small bonus to weapons other than damage? Give it a short cooldown, and have it proc on the first successful attack after a hot-swap. Give the pilot a reason to be juggling weapons.

Overclock: This is a bloody terrible skill. It was mildly...something before the change. Now it’s just...well it’s dumb. It could be in the middle of the tree somewhere as a throw-away rarely useful option. As nearly a capstone skill? Trash.

--Suggestion: A toggled ability. Reduces balance cost of attacks, but builds up EM damage and eventually starts hurting the pilot. Depending on the power, a cooldown after the skill is deactivated.

--Suggestion: Tie this into the new resource system. While active, attacks do extra plasma damage(Muscular), burning off some excess heat in the process.

--Suggestion: While active, there is no heat cap in the new resource system. Heat can continue to build, scaling related skill's damage as well as the damage you're taking. Lasts X seconds.


Ramset: I still don’t understand if this skill actually does anything. 

Steady: Is fine, should include a damage resistance buff maybe, but is fine.

Jamming: This is fine as well, although I’d like to see the action lines updated to be a cool mech feature, not a drunk marching band.

Contingency: It makes a lot of sense to program your mech to step in if the pilot gets overwhelmed. Later in levels, it’s okay. Requiring the sky is again frustrating and doesn’t make a ton of sense when you could be thrown sideways as well. My biggest issue is that at lower levels you often get hit above the threshold, and die. It should perhaps stop incoming damage at 1, and then fire.

Watch: Fine as is.


SuitTech Attacks:

I’m going to suggest we revamp this part the most. Move away from a hand to hand combatant, and move more to be a battle mech pilot. That is, using your Mech’s power core to unleash blasts, of a mostly utility nature. These attacks should help vent heat from the new resource system.

Backhand: Turn into Backblast. This would take on the SHIELD SMASH mechanic from MWP. Vents heat.

Boot: Replace with Vicegrip: Allow you to pick up a prop and carry it. It requires both hands empty. Lets you drop the prop as well.
Armvice: Turn into Disarm. A blast of energy to remove a wielded item.

Legclamp: Replace with Crush. Let’s you slam a held prop into the ground, or a target. Doing lots of damage, and destroying the prop.

Grapple: Turn into EmBlast(or a better name). Fire a beam of energy focused on overloading flight systems, causing the target to lose control and crash, doing massive damage (to Internal). Vents heat.

Rumble: Fine with this

Pound: Rename, retheme, the same function. Or Remove. It would need to not rely on prone to make this functional.

Discharge: This seems powerful, but I don’t understand it’s purpose currently. Other changes could make this fine as is. Would vent heat.

Sunder: Rename Disintegration Beam. Re-theme it. Requires high heat to fire, does damage based on heat level. Vents heat. Instantly kills if the target's internals are below 25%.


NEW SUITTECH:

Shield: Currently MWP shield has no purpose for existing. You can even get drops and get higher power shields, but there’s no point in upgrading the power. Remove them entirely, and make it a part of SuitTech.

Shield: A passive buff that boosts defenses once activated.

Protect: Reduce your personal shield, and extend it to an ally in the room. Passive once activated. Taken from MWP

Block: Taken from MWP. Have an option between keeping out (channeled) and keeping in (passive).

Deflect: Taken from MWP. Another channel that’s stupid. Channel to...hurt your allies? Come on now. Remove the channel, make it drop if you move rooms.



Next up, Plasmacasting:

-Not gonna lie, this fits the ‘firebat’ idea pretty well. The main issue would be the not super great flow of things. Also, it feels like a skill set that is from another class in relation to the other two. They don’t really cross over very well. Few suggestions.

First, work this into the described new resource system below. Then make this one of the primary ways to expand use of that system. Several skills to improve heat cap, and the other skills would scale very well with suit heat, as well as build it quickly. This would provide a high reward system, at the cost of lots of self-harm and a possible suit explosion.

Plasmawreathe: Another in the long list of why is this a channeled ability that does nothing but takes me out of the fight for my opponent to land free skills. You can’t even be weird and hunt with this, because basically all NPC attacks are considered ranged and this only triggers on melee.

--Suggestion: Remove channeled. Requires shield skill to be deactivated to work. Works on any attack, 2-second cooldown. Expands Heat Cap.

Plasmashield: Why is there such a dumb duration? There is like, one cold attack out there. This should just be a buff. Have it reduce plasma max if you want. Expands Heat Cap.

Plasmablade: Again with the duration. There are already enough negatives to having this active to make it a choice. Duration isn’t needed. While active, related attacks vent heat.

Clearsight: Uh, okay? This could be a passive buff and still be basically useless. Which is fine, filler skills exist. Just make it a passive buff.



And then, MWP:

-This skill kills me. We’re in space. In the future. The tech is hella advanced, tons of npcs use advanced energy weapons, ships use advanced weapons. We have nanites everywhere. Why the fuck are we firing bullets, ultra shitty missiles, and NETS at people? Are we god damn Ewoks?


Shield removed to SuitTech.

Netlauncher now a small weapon (wrist mounted). Now themed around being a nano-fiber electrified net.

Railgun now a medium weapon.

New weapon: Void Cannon, Large weapon.


Tether: Can this please be fixed to work on npcs that aren’t guards? I was told it should be working but hasn’t in a long time.

All net launcher attacks should apply split damage or be straight EM damage.


Missiles:

-Holy crap, can ALL missile launchers use the keyword: Missile, please? Prolly Missiles as well.

-Everything about missiles sucks. Everything. I don’t know why I just know that I feel like I’d do better picking up a rock and hurling it at someone using Suit strength.

Countermeasures: Should work as a defense that is passive, but only when the missile launcher is the SECONDARY large weapon.

Incendiary: Should probably add scorched. Could be plasma coated for muscular damage as well.

Missiles need to do WAY more damage overall. Especially to props.


Minigun:

Thematic: This needs to be plasma rounds. It would tie into the plasmacaster theme, and make way more sense then you just randomly having endless bullets. And make you feel like a part of the times.

-Mostly fine, just an issue with focusfire. This should do way, way more damage to props. Spending 30-60 seconds of a fight trying to get rid of a prop someone’s behind is just stupid.

-Vantage: Mostly positive this is utterly useless.

-Could allow us to pick special rounds. Thermal, Gravitic, Em. Give an option to use this gun to focus on particular subsystems.


Railgun:

-This should be the ‘sniper’ rifle, and as such, should be able to bypass cover at range. Or at the very least, have a good chance to bypass it.

New Skill: Aim - Take careful aim at a target, giving you an increased chance to hit even targets behind cover.




Wristblade:

Thematic: Change this. Like, a lot. Make the weapon a hilt that focuses our plasma energies. Have it flare out in different shapes for different attacks. Make it a huge rocket hammer. Anything actually cool and futuristic. Not a stupid metal shank.

Skills: Alter to support new thematic, and have this weapon be a way to vent excess heat.


Void Cannon:

Thematic: Let’s go to own and use some Gravitic rounds. Let’s have fun with it!
Vortex: Create a micro-singularity within the room that pulses and draws all adjacent enemies in.

Voidpulse: Attempt to open a micro-singularity within your target, inflicting internal damage.

Gravitate: Play havoc with local gravity, launching everyone into the air.

Singularity: Create a larger singularity than normal, which will harm everyone in the room when it collapses.

Blackhole: Create a void around your target, increasing all balance costs until removed. Fully absorbs the next healing skill the target uses, which cures of them of the void.

--Can have fun creating anything here really. So long as it stands to reason it would require a big mech suit to deploy the weapon.



It's late and I'm sure I  have missed some core thoughts I've had about the class. I'll add edit notes if I include new things later.


EDIT: New Resource System!
Just re-rig the plasma tanks. Instead of starting full and working down, you start empty and work up. Various skills can build heat as the pilot put's their mech through the paces. Various other skills, mostly in SuitTech, can vent heat. Some skills, such as the Disintegration Beam, can require a certain amount of heat before it'll even fire. While you might start being able to reach say, 1000 heat before you start having it hurt you, the pilot, certain skills can raise this cap. This would support skills that will have damage tied to heat level, as well as support the thematic that you're just becoming a better pilot as you learn more about your suit. Once the suit reaches a threshold, it can continue past that point with overclocking. If you are destroyed while at maximum heat, you blow up and do damage to everyone in the room. This could scale with excess heat, giving the pilot the very real option of blowing his suit to hold the line. Or to just be vengeful. But it would cost the pilot, as they would have to keep the heat high without using venting skills.

Alternately to having skills give you a place to channel heat, thus improving a heat cap, you could have a passive skill mid-way in each skill tree. This skill once acquired, would reduce heat buildup from using relevant skills in those trees. Hrm, maybe not have one in plasmacasting.
Krumpa

Comments

  • IkchorIkchor Member Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    Pretty sure PIECEs' use conventional ammo as well, but I guess that'd depend on the individual since they're supposed to be highly modifiable and if they aren't, well, you're a Scoundrel. I mean I have a magazine and a magical ammo case/belt, so BEASTs using bullets in their minigun isn't that big of a stretch. There's also kinetic batteries, which I know you're going to be like "Why are you using those, stop that. Stop being terrible at things." but I'm just pointing out that there's still room for ordinary munitions in the Starmourn universe. Plasma minigun seems like overkill, why not depleted uranium rounds instead?
    I forgot I was going to call myself Ike while in chargen, so now I'm Zarrach.
  • SteveSteve Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    Thermal and draining minigun rounds seem like a natural fit, to me.
  • KirinKirin Member Posts: 97 ✭✭✭
    Thematically BEAST feels like a star kith user class than a void kith user 
  • RylekRylek Member Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
    Edited with a new resource system at the bottom. Modified some of the skill suggestions based on feedback, and the desire to work the whole set of skills together with the new resource system.
  • gravithiccgravithicc Member Posts: 19
    I like the different effects the gravitic rounds have, but I dislike how they are each tethered to a particular ability or command. How about if the different gravity effects happen naturally as a consequence of using gravitic ammo in a big general purpose cannon?

    Firing a gravitic round without specifying a target would have the round explode in the current room and automatically do neat black hole stuff. Maybe have the effects get more pronounced the more gravitic rounds are detonated in the room at the same time (requires help from other BEASTs or nanoseers?). Example: First props are flipped over, people can't leave the room, low flyers are brought down. More pronounced effect includes drawing stuff in from adjacent rooms and the high skies (players, mobs, items, props). If you overdo it then you create a big singularity that hurts everything in the room when it collapses (no special command needed, it just happens as a consequence of too much black hole magics in one room).

    Firing a gravitic round into a target would hurt them, of course, just as you described. I don't think it should require it's own special command. Just shoot them. If you continue shooting them with gravitic rounds, they acquire that increased balance cost penalty you described for "Black Hole" ability.

    Firing the gravitic round into the sky can lift people. Firing the round into another room can start the room effects described above, you just won't be in the room to witness them.

    BEASTs should passively resist pushing/pulling effects (from anything: wind, underwater currents, lasso pulls, gravitic forces) simply by being massive and by using their jumpjets. This is only a resistance, not an immunity to being moved. The more forceful the push/pull effect is, the more work and resources it should require from the player to resist it. So weak effects like strong winds in a room are negated for BEASTs. BEASTs can passively resist stronger effects like underwater currents and gravitic forces with jumpjets, using up some BEAST resource, balance, movement time, whatever. Very strong forces can't be resisted, but maybe BEASTs can get a small chance to escape using an active command with high cost or cooldown (afterburner?). A player might have to think tactically to escape from the pull of a collapsing singularity in an adjacent room, maybe by adding to the gravitic forces to cause a premature implosion, or maybe creating gravitic forces in the opposite direction. I surely hope it won't be as easy as closing a door, though that would be funny :p.

    I think the above proposed resistance to gravitic forces along with the proposed gravity rounds can make BEASTs more effective against nanoseers and their void magic.
  • KrumpaKrumpa Member Posts: 9
    This, the whole reason i cant get into the game is cause i only want to play a B.E.A.S.T but they are very underwhelming from a flavor standpoint imo. Why would i aim to kick, stab, or grab someone when i'm a literal mobile weapons platform??? I hope they listen and make the B.E.A.S.T play like a heavy mech shock troop instead of a rock um sock um robot. In my mind the only time i would be aiming to slap someone around in a mechanized suit is to counter them being in my space or as an insult (though i do like the idea of crushing something with a prop, thats some nice flavor haha). The day they make B.E.A.S.Ts actually play like a heavy weapons troop is they day ill be on the game for good. Though I thought it would have been fixed by now its w/e i'll just keep waiting. 
    gravithicc
  • CubeyCubey Member Posts: 326 ✭✭✭
    I don't have issues with BEASTs punching or stabbing people. It's what robot suits do after all:




    But the problem with BEASTs is that they have so many weapons but use them so... statically, one at a time (which usually means they only use one-two weapons over and over). I'd much prefer it if BEASTs had several seperate balances, kinda like monks in other IRE games who have two arms and one leg balance and can do combos - only here instead of martial arts it'd be using several weapons at once. They'd have to be made weaker than they are right now of course.
    gravithicc
  • SteveSteve Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    I'd love to see BEASTs with separate balances for different weapon systems, with appropriate balance costs, damage tweaks, and cooldowns to keep it fair. Could also have signature abilities for the weapons that require a global balance, so you can't just double shoot the railgun plus some other alpha striking stuff in a way that precludes counterplay.
  • SteveSteve Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    I should add that one of my favorite experiences in video gaming is that feeling in a MechWarrior game in which you, the pilot, are wading through combat, managing all your weapon systems and heat, and trying to run hot or die firing everything you can while picking appropriate targets and keeping yourself from dying. Blending separate balances for weapon systems with a new version of heat would be my ideal version of BEAST, and I would buy lessons to multi class into it.
  • CubeyCubey Member Posts: 326 ✭✭✭
    Since BEASTs have three weapon slots (small, medium, large) then the most straightforward solution is to have seperate balances for small, medium and large weapons. Plasmacasting would work outside of this system, same for MVP moves.

    Just let me restate again, individual weapons would need a nerf if that were to happen. Getting simultaneously knifed, chain- and railgun'd would quickly take down anyone with those weapons working as they do now, even if individually they aren't the best.
  • SteveSteve Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    One thing I am classleading is consolidating the weapons to small, medium, and large weapons. This addresses the problem of having too many item drops.

    edit: consolidating them by making them weapon "modules." Still swap between functions.
  • RylekRylek Member Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
    The weapon modules thing was tried and rejected last time.

    You keep saying that weapons would need to be nerfed if they were changed. That's just...I don't follow the logic. In fact, I don't follow the current logic of how they're locked away behind which weapon is forward. Each weapon should provide its own perks/cons and just be usable. There's -no- reason to make you need to be rotating between them. None. Worse, the class has the worst 'weapon wield' balance cost in the game. By a lot. The weapons aren't so strong to need to be weirdly gated like they currently are. They should just work, and things should be gated behind balance/heat cost. Like how the flame thrower skills work currently. Except heat should be revamped as suggested above.

    The class is weird. There are TONS of gates on things. Tons of channeled attacks, tons of target status requirements. None of them are worth it. It's extra frustration that is supposed to make the class complicated? Tie-down power it used to have maybe? I donno. 

    We need more than classleads to fix BEAST.
  • AlbionAlbion Member Posts: 98 ✭✭✭
    He's saying they need to be nerfed if they all had their own balances because it'd result in BEAST hitting for about 3k every 4s or so. 
    Steve
  • KrumpaKrumpa Member Posts: 9
    edited December 2019
    I agree with most of what has been said except the flat nerfing every individual weapon in exchange of being able to use all of them on separate balances. Why? because at the end of the day its one of those things that always looks good on paper but will be a headache in-game. Systems like that will force people to play one way or be ineffective which will make the class stale as well as bring us back square one with a new coat of paint. I dunno what the exact change would be but the way it is doesn't make sense to me at all. 

    Cubey, i absolutely agree that theres nothing wrong with some suit enhanced CqC aggression but look at the class picture man the thing is a butter knife... mentally i simply cant get behind running up into a breaths distance to backhand and shank anything and everything i see as a threat being the best course of action. If we had a melee primary (not a sword) maybe i could work with it but its like a comedy scene plays out anytime thats the primary strategy.

    Why not simply have a hybrid system and combine the ideas? For example if all my power is routed to a primary task i do 100% damage, if im using two x% less damage is done, ect. Maybe have it need to be configured at ones ship or a station with a high level ability to change the configuration on the go at a high cooldown (+ a drawback if needed) and trade some utility skills for being more of a weapons platform. I dont think the fix is black and white as far as weapon diversity  goes (thats complicated imo) and will take multiple minds to get right but i like the ideas you all have...
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