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Character gender in Starmourn - the final word

There's been some discussion over the months on this thread - http://forums.starmourn.com/discussion/124/character-gender - about whether we should have more than two gender options (three if you include Decheerans, who have no gender). 

We've decided that we're going to have a third after all, though we're not intending to go beyond that for a number of reasons.

We'll have male, female, and non-binary as gender options. The pronouns the game will use for the non-binary option are the familiar they/them/theirs (unlike Decheerans, who use 'it').

We feel like this is the best way to go because there are too many permutations of potential gender (especially in a sci-fi universe with the advanced cloning and genetic manipulation tech available) to cover mechanically and it gives players space to define what it means for themselves in whatever way they want, via descriptions, dress, actions, etc. We realized, in fact, that we never even have to address biological sex mechanically, and so we won't. Gender is going to refer to just that, gender. If you want to write your personal description so that your gender is a woman but you have a penis or vice-versa, that's up to you. You can do that in any of our games already anyway, since descriptions are free-form. (Not that I encourage you to include your genitals in your description. That's kind of tacky imo.)

So, anyway, that's what we're doing!
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Comments

  • This is awesome. Thanks @Aurelius!!
    Vote for Starmourn! Don't hurt Poffy.
  • You guys convinced us!
  • Aurelius said:
    [some stuff]

     If you want to write your personal description so that your gender is a woman but you have a penis or vice-versa, that's up to you. You can do that in any of our games already anyway, since descriptions are free-form. (Not that I encourage you to include your genitals in your description. That's kind of tacky imo.)

    So, anyway, that's what we're doing!

    set desc and he has a vice-versa, but why would you ever look down there to check! My eyes are up here!
    I'm sorry, I couldn't resist :awesome:

    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN
    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    GrootToday at 2:16 PM
      if there's no kittens in space
      I'm going on a rampage
    TectonToday at 2:17 PM
      They're called w'hoorn, Groot
      sets out a saucer of milk
  • Yaaaay. We're having an impact on the game! Power to the players!
  • Good sign, like Meder says.
  • You are awesome!

    "They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
    — Oscar Wilde


    "I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
    — Margaret Atwood

  • This is really great to hear. You guys are awesome indeed! <3
  • So, Deecheran don't have determinable sex... Why would this exclude them from Gender? It's an interesting touch for sure, but does it entirely make sense? Unless Deecheran are created to not be masculine or feminine in any way, this would be deciding pronouns on the basis of sex, which is seemingly not the way you're approaching things.
    FoofFoof
  • Affurit said:
    So, Deecheran don't have determinable sex... Why would this exclude them from Gender? It's an interesting touch for sure, but does it entirely make sense? Unless Deecheran are created to not be masculine or feminine in any way, this would be deciding pronouns on the basis of sex, which is seemingly not the way you're approaching things.
    Deecheran are essentially just sentient trees, and reproduce asexually. (I picture them as ents, except ents weren't asexual.) Perhaps it's intended that they don't culturally recognise gender any more than they recognise sex.

    I don't see a problem with creating diversity in the game's cultural approaches to gender. There are many races to choose from after all.

    "They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
    — Oscar Wilde


    "I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
    — Margaret Atwood

  • > Perhaps it's intended that they don't culturally recognise gender any more than they recognise sex. They recognize sex and gender in others, but those concepts just don't apply to them.
  • Aurelius said:
    > Perhaps it's intended that they don't culturally recognise gender any more than they recognise sex.
    They recognize sex and gender in others, but those concepts just don't apply to them.
  • Aurelius said:
    There's been some discussion over the months on this thread - http://forums.starmourn.com/discussion/124/character-gender - about whether we should have more than two gender options (three if you include Decheerans, who have no gender). 

    We've decided that we're going to have a third after all, though we're not intending to go beyond that for a number of reasons.

    We'll have male, female, and non-binary as gender options. The pronouns the game will use for the non-binary option are the familiar they/them/theirs (unlike Decheerans, who use 'it').

    We feel like this is the best way to go because there are too many permutations of potential gender (especially in a sci-fi universe with the advanced cloning and genetic manipulation tech available) to cover mechanically and it gives players space to define what it means for themselves in whatever way they want, via descriptions, dress, actions, etc. We realized, in fact, that we never even have to address biological sex mechanically, and so we won't. Gender is going to refer to just that, gender. If you want to write your personal description so that your gender is a woman but you have a penis or vice-versa, that's up to you. You can do that in any of our games already anyway, since descriptions are free-form. (Not that I encourage you to include your genitals in your description. That's kind of tacky imo.)

    So, anyway, that's what we're doing!
    You guys really ahould devise a @nudes system tgat lets you set individual bodypart descs that get hidden when items of certain types coer that spot. Then we can write out our genitles to our hearts content and only show them off when we want to 
  • edited April 2018
    @magee101
    I know Sindome does it.

    It is positively... sinful.

    I also know that, at least, Achaea uses a layers system for their clothing, and Aetolia uses a semi-version of that as well.

    It is possible.. but um.. I wouldn't mind genitalia being omitted. It'd just let me add tattoos to parts of my char's body that I don't have to explain being revealed? "How can I see your back tattoo when you're wearing a jacket and a shirt?"
  • @magee101 I've seen enough genitals flapping in the wind in IRE games already, thanks. Besides, if you really want to do that, just set up a simple set of triggers to change your character description when you add or remove articles of clothing; no need for a built-in system.

    @Satomi Tattoos are different, since they have a mechanical component in IRE games (and at least as far as iriil goes, they will in Starmourn). I agree, a system to make them visible/invisible makes good sense to me, since they're equipment, not just flavor.
  • Malash said:
     Besides, if you really want to do that, just set up a simple set of triggers to change your character description when you add or remove articles of clothing; no need for a built-in system.
    My mind is blown. How did I never think of that before? :D
  • While it doesn't directly impact me, this decision could have a pretty large impact on main-stream MUDs. (yes, I realize MUDs are far from main stream)

    I've interacted with many characters who would have loved a non-binary option for gender so kudos to the staff for already being open to the desires of the community! Well played.
  • Malash said:
    @magee101 I've seen enough genitals flapping in the wind in IRE games already, thanks. Besides, if you really want to do that, just set up a simple set of triggers to change your character description when you add or remove articles of clothing; no need for a built-in system.

    @Satomi Tattoos are different, since they have a mechanical component in IRE games (and at least as far as iriil goes, they will in Starmourn). I agree, a system to make them visible/invisible makes good sense to me, since they're equipment, not just flavor.
    Meh thats assuming I am using a computer and not mobile first off. Second off there is a ton more customization that can be done with a system like I proposed. Likw having a character that is heavily scarred in certain areas so you have them desced but they are only seen if you choose to reveal them etc. Sure its a bit niche but all the games i have seen use a system like this have only gotten benefits out of it
  • Kestrel said:
    I would also like a system that enables you to conceal your identity via masks/costumes but that would probably require IRE to move beyond their current system of having character names visible as soon as they walk into a room regardless of whether you've ever met/seen them before, and I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
    Yeah, definitely not something we'd do. Anonymity is too abusable.
  • edited April 2018
    It would be awesome if it did though! It would be incredibly cool, if you had to have someone offer their name before you knew it. Or even better, if you gradually learned information about someone from time spent with them. With the way things work now, it would be far too frustrating for various reasons...
    (I apologize for derail. Seemed like such a great idea)

    eta: was a response to Kestrel, Aurelius snuck his in while I was tediously typing :D
    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN
    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM
    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    GrootToday at 2:16 PM
      if there's no kittens in space
      I'm going on a rampage
    TectonToday at 2:17 PM
      They're called w'hoorn, Groot
      sets out a saucer of milk
  • Qitorien said:
    It would be awesome if it did though! It would be incredibly cool, if you had to have someone offer their name before you knew it. Or even better, if you gradually learned information about someone from time spent with them. With the way things work now, it would be far too frustrating for various reasons...
    (I apologize for derail. Seemed like such a great idea)
    I agree, but Starmourn is maybe the only IRE game where it actually makes sense for us to know someone's identity as soon as we see them, what with everyone having mindsims feeding them information at all times, and a reasonable possibility of one mindsim being able to read a....serial number, something, off another nearby mindsim.
  • I support @Kestrel's DESCRIBE HIDDEN (area) idea.
  • For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
  • edited November 2018
    Khargal said:
    For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
    IRE games have an ignore/snub command that can be used to create a safe space from those whose existence offends you.

    "They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
    — Oscar Wilde


    "I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
    — Margaret Atwood

  • Kestrel said:
    Khargal said:
    For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
    IRE games have an ignore command that can be used to create a safe space from those whose existence offends you.
    It is not about their existence it is about gender pronouns
  • edited November 2018

    Khargal said:
    For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
    Regardless of weird political beliefs, in this game genders DO exist so that would be a moot point. In this game W'hoorn and Ry'nari and Elgan exist which do not exist in our world but I trust you're not suggesting we erase any of the races outside human?
    Vote for Starmourn! Don't hurt Poffy.
  • Khargal said:
    Kestrel said:
    Khargal said:
    For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
    IRE games have an ignore command that can be used to create a safe space from those whose existence offends you.
    It is not about their existence it is about gender pronouns
    Regardless of personal opinions, it's disrespectful to ignore someone's pronouns if they have made clear how they would prefer to be addressed. If you consider yourself male you would not like it if, after making this clear, I insisted on referring to you as a woman and called you she/her. It's simply rude.

    If you are unable to respect another person's wishes, it is in your best interests to avoid them, so they do not upset you, and in their best interests that you avoid them, so they need not be unduly exposed to your disrespect. For this reason the ignore/snub command is a very elegant means with which to handle situations where you feel that you're unable to communicate or be exposed to others' communications without being disrespectful. It will protect you from having to acknowledge them.

    "They are elect to whom beautiful things mean only Beauty."
    — Oscar Wilde


    "I'll take care of it, Luke said. And because he said it instead of her, I knew he meant kill. That is what you have to do before you kill, I thought. You have to create an it, where none was before."
    — Margaret Atwood

  • edited November 2018
    Syaja said:

    Khargal said:
    For representation of people with right political views that believe that genders do not exist, I would like to ask for an option not to see whatever non-binaries
    Regardless of weird political beliefs, in this game genders DO exist so that would be a moot point. In this game W'hoorn and Ry'nari and Elgan exist which do not exist in our world but I trust you're not suggesting we erase any of the races outside human?
    1. It exists because f some weird snowflakes that cried about representation and diversity
    2. You are mixing biological things, which are like race and sex, and mental things like genders.
    3. Show respect to all political views
    4. Also, as I already answered to Kestrel, I DO NOT speak about existence, I request an option not to see non-binary genders. This is as valid as request to introduce them
  • I'm not getting into a political debate here so there's not much to add.

    Triggers exist to sub out words.
    Vote for Starmourn! Don't hurt Poffy.
This discussion has been closed.