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The State of PK (and a couple other questions)

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  • ArsentarArsentar Posts: 31Member
    I mean, Achaea is opt-in too. If you stay out of open-pk areas, don't run your mouth, don't make enemies and generally stay out of anyone's ways no matter how much they might try to antagonize you then you are (probably) not going to get killed.


  • QitorienQitorien Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭
    Midkemia had the secretive Nighthawks guild based upon the assassins of the same name in the books. It was awesome though required some special oversight.
    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN

    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates

    BaedundarielScathain
  • BaedundarielBaedundariel Posts: 60Member ✭✭
    Qitorien said:
    Midkemia had the secretive Nighthawks guild based upon the assassins of the same name in the books. It was awesome though required some special oversight.
    Khargal said:
    Achaea has a system of assassins to revenge your death. I believe this system would suit Starmourn well
    Getting tingles up my spine :awesome:
    Ataniiq
    Qitorien
  • BandusBandus Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Dodger said:

    There's no rules against it in IRE games, and in fact it's almost a necessity due to the fast-paced combat of the game. When you deliver multiple afflictions per second, and have to track which ones you have, which ones the enemy has, and what they cure and get from passive and active sources—there are so many variables that you would be foolish to try and do everything manually. All of the current IRE games actually have built-in server-side curing systems now (and Starmourn has a sort of that thing with wetwiring) simply because automating the defensive side of combat was completely mandatory.

    First off, I need to admit that I am approaching this with a bit of ignorance and a blind spot in that I have never played an IRE game before. However, generally speaking, I feel like one could make the argument that if you need to build a massive scripting system to be on-par competitively in PvP, that is indicative of an issue with the combat system. While I respect and agree with the opinion that being able to code these scripting systems allows those who type slower to have a chance, it still feels like something is broken with a system when your average person can't compete without resorting to scripting/triggers/aliasing.

    With regard to the discussion on an "opt-in" system, the carebear in me wants to agree with it 100%. However, I agree that the biggest issue with it being an "opt-in" system is that some people will try to use that as a shield to hide behind. They'll argue, lob insults, etc. and then hide behind the fact they aren't "opted in." I can really only think of two options to resolve this. People being forcibly "opted in" or everyone being "opted in" from the start. Both will end up requiring overhead though.

    In the case of people being forcibly opted in, someone would have to review/assess and determine who crossed the line enough with their verbal attacks to qualify to be forced to opt in. In the case of people being opted in from the start, someone would have to monitor to make sure that people didn't just go on killing rampages. Honestly, I'm not sure either of those are the best solutions, but no other ideas come to mind. 
    HailfireBaedundarielPluralis
  • WilmerWilmer Posts: 24Member
    edited August 2017
    I'm going to weigh in here because I think I've got something relevant to add.  For everyone capable enough to play most MUD type games in the first place (being dumped into a living, interactive text world), you can easily become affluent enough in scripting i.e. basic aliases, scripts and triggers.

    With zero knowledge of scripting, and only the most basic in computers for that matter, I found, with a few basic examples that I could put together plenty of great stuff with none - minimal help.  Most people are ready and willing to give advice and help as long as you show effort.
    Pedagogical rumors of rumors fuel the cosmos
     
    Oogah_Chakha
  • WilmerWilmer Posts: 24Member
    The only combat scripts I've ever used have been for healing or basic aliases/highlights; far from autonomous.  I've spent the majority of my time in IRE MUDs without some of that.  I believe wetwiring is going to replace the need for much of the competition in the external scripting of defense.

    I'm sure you do get a competitive edge out of scripting, but you get more out of knowing yours and your enemy's abilities.

    I'm in agreement, however, I'd much prefer that no scripting provided a competitive edge.
    Pedagogical rumors of rumors fuel the cosmos
     
    BaedundarielSyaja
  • HailfireHailfire Posts: 25Member ✭✭

    Thanks @Wilmer . This is the kind of thing I mean when I mention automation though.

    Dodger said:
    Is it not fair for someone who isn't a fast reader to code a script that displays important information without having to read and remember every single thing? Is it not fair for someone who isn't a fast typer to create functions that automatically choose which afflictions to give when balance is recovered?
    I am neither an especially fast typer or a particularly fast reader, and I won't be using a script to play because it's a game and I want to play it how it was made to be played. As a result it seems I'll be at a distinct disadvantage when playing against someone who is running the aforementioned scripts.



    Baedundariel
  • ArsentarArsentar Posts: 31Member
    edited August 2017
    Personally,  the part of the game I really enjoy is the RP and social aspect. I have no problem in using scripts to aid myself once I have established that my character has worked in acquiring those abilities. I don't condone full automation, but some is definitely fine for me.
    Baedundariel
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 279Administrator Starmourn staff
    edited August 2017
    Hailfire said:

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    I completely agree with this. The only reason we don't consider scripting (meaning, here, auto-reactions, not simple aliases/macros) cheating is because we're not equipped to engage in an arms race with scripters. So, our rule, by necessity, ends up defaulting to, "If we can't tell you're doing it, it's fine." And when it comes to combat, we can't reasonably tell. Outlawing it would basically cause us to end up busting the less-good scripters, since good scripters would constantly be figuring out how to fool our detection systems.

    It's basically the cost of not locking people to a client we control.
    BaedundarielBandusHailfireScathain
  • AureliusAurelius Posts: 279Administrator Starmourn staff
    edited August 2017
    Bandus said:

    First off, I need to admit that I am approaching this with a bit of ignorance and a blind spot in that I have never played an IRE game before. However, generally speaking, I feel like one could make the argument that if you need to build a massive scripting system to be on-par competitively in PvP, that is indicative of an issue with the combat system. 
    That's like suggesting Go and Chess are broken because it's impossible for humans to compete against good scripters though.

    The nature and rate of computational advancement means that soon the only games that scripts won't murder players at will be games or game systems where free-form communication is integral to the gameplay (and that's only true until AI gets to a certain point), or games with small enough populations that there's not an incentive to do the work to fully automate them.

    So, for instance, nobody's ever managed to fully-automate Achaea's combat, but I have no doubt it could be done today by skilled enough folks spending enough time. It would be an enormous task though, relative to the size of Achaea's playerbase and any rewards it would bring you. I hope that holds true for Starmourn too.

    On the other hand, in Achaea, for instance, there are competitive political systems that are unscriptable today, because they involve convincing other real humans to vote for you. Starmourn will have some similar mechanics that are not even theoretically scriptable today (though will be once AI is a lot further along irl).
    BaedundarielBandusHailfireArcher
  • BandusBandus Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    Aurelius said:
    Bandus said:

    First off, I need to admit that I am approaching this with a bit of ignorance and a blind spot in that I have never played an IRE game before. However, generally speaking, I feel like one could make the argument that if you need to build a massive scripting system to be on-par competitively in PvP, that is indicative of an issue with the combat system. 
    That's like suggesting Go and Chess are broken because it's impossible for humans to compete against good scripters though.

    The nature and rate of computational advancement means that soon the only games that scripts won't murder players at will be games or game systems where free-form communication is integral to the gameplay (and that's only true until AI gets to a certain point), or games with small enough populations that there's not an incentive to do the work to fully automate them.

    So, for instance, nobody's ever managed to fully-automate Achaea's combat, but I have no doubt it could be done today by skilled enough folks spending enough time. It would be an enormous task though, relative to the size of Achaea's playerbase and any rewards it would bring you. I hope that holds true for Starmourn too.

    On the other hand, in Achaea, for instance, there are competitive political systems that are unscriptable today, because they involve convincing other real humans to vote for you. Starmourn will have some similar mechanics that are not even theoretically scriptable today (though will be once AI is a lot further along irl).

    Fair points, I agree. I certainly appreciate that there will be other arenas to compete in PvP wise besides martial combat. However, I'm not sure with Go and Chess you are comparing apples to apples. Both Go and Chess are turned based and give each player time to ponder their strategy with regard to their next move. If a game (text based or not) is throwing so much input at you at the same time, to the point that the only way to meaningfully respond to that input is to script or automate, there's an issue there, in my opinion.

    That said, I also appreciate the futility of trying to police scripting. We've all seen other games with harsh penalties for scripting, yet scripting still happens. 

    Perhaps someone can help me (and perhaps those like me), who aren't solid coders and haven't really played a game that required scripting to be competitive. In particular, I'd be interested to hear from players of other IRE games. If I choose not to script, or use aliases, how much of a disadvantage does that put me at? It's been said that someone who types fast will be on par with someone using scripts, but I'm not sure that is entirely fair to say since the fast typist will make a typo occasionally, whereas a script will not. So assuming I wanted to play in the PvP sphere, is it possible? Will I always be bested by people using automation? 

    One final thing: I appreciate this discussion very much and am still very excited for Starmourn. I don't want my concerns or sentiments to be misconstrued. Can't wait to play!
    HailfireQitorien
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭
    @Bandus I'd say you'd be fine with aliases, it's much much harder to be on par with your own typing. And when I say aliases I mean thinks like TOR = launch torpedo at ship or something. Basics. (these can be set in game in other IRE games, btw. "setalias TOR launch torpedo at $tar or something similar.)

    I played on Nexus (the official game client) in Achaea, with aliases and a couple highlight triggers. It worked. I was able to fight and beat some decent fighters and I wasn't overly familiar with combat the way they were. They're promising that combat here will require far less scripting. I'd say you'd be fine but I would still strongly recommend some basic aliases that allow you to avoid the typos.
    HailfireScathain
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    Whether you are fighting someone who automates every action or someone who only manuals or something in-between, you are still pitting your knowledge of combat against the knowledge of another human being. Machines are as fallible as their creators. There is no 'perfect system'; there is always an error or overlook in the code to seek out and exploit.

    Combat is always about exploiting openings and errors that your opponent makes. If two people have the same error in thinking, it is going to be exploitable whether they code it into their system or process it in their brain. Even the difference in reaction time between man vs machine is made moot by the command queueing system that exists in every IRE game and probably will exist in Starmourn.

    At the end of the day, it all comes down to who knows more. Knowledge is power, and it doesn't matter how you implement that knowledge, whether you put it into code or type it with your bare hands. Everyone can be beaten regardless of how they choose to play the game, and if you believe otherwise, you've already lost.
    SyajaSanaeTraveler
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭
    Yes, knowledge is definitely the most important thing.

    Or in my case, a whole lotta lucky hits. ;)
  • HailfireHailfire Posts: 25Member ✭✭
    Last comment on this thread because I cba with this particular debate anymore. The relavent parties have already made up their minds it seems.
    Aurelius said:
    The only reason we don't consider scripting (meaning, here, auto-reactions, not simple aliases/macros) cheating is because we're not equipped to engage in an arms race with scripters.
    So whilst one can get away with scripting because it can't be policed, only a very select few think it's actually fair to do it. Most likely those it benefits. There's what is permitted, and there is what's right by everyone else @Dodger . That's all I have left to say on the matter.

    Baedundariel
  • BandusBandus Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Dodger said:
    At the end of the day, it all comes down to who knows more. Knowledge is power, and it doesn't matter how you implement that knowledge, whether you put it into code or type it with your bare hands.

    I cannot disagree more with this sentiment. I'm not saying knowledge doesn't play a role, of course it does. However, how that knowledge is applied is necessarily relevant as well. If we takes two people, equally knowledgeable in the combat system, but one uses scripting/aliasing/macros and one types by hand, I do not believe it is realistic to say they are on equal ground. Using their knowledge, the person typing by hand has to see the input, interpret it, decide the best way to react to it, and output a command in real time, every time. The person using the script doesn't have to think much in real time at all, right? They press a button to start their script, the client interprets the input and fires back output, far faster than a person playing by hand could ever hope to do.

    Or am I misunderstanding something?
    HailfireBaedundarielScathain
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭
    Bandus said:
    Dodger said:
    At the end of the day, it all comes down to who knows more. Knowledge is power, and it doesn't matter how you implement that knowledge, whether you put it into code or type it with your bare hands.

    I cannot disagree more with this sentiment. I'm not saying knowledge doesn't play a role, of course it does. However, how that knowledge is applied is necessarily relevant as well. If we takes two people, equally knowledgeable in the combat system, but one uses scripting/aliasing/macros and one types by hand, I do not believe it is realistic to say they are on equal ground. Using their knowledge, the person typing by hand has to see the input, interpret it, decide the best way to react to it, and output a command in real time, every time. The person using the script doesn't have to think much in real time at all, right? They press a button to start their script, the client interprets the input and fires back output, far faster than a person playing by hand could ever hope to do.

    Or am I misunderstanding something?
    With balance being a thing, it does give you sometime to react and respond that can even out the playing field, but that is why I use aliases.
  • BandusBandus Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    Perhaps that is a missing piece for me. By balance do you mean, like, game mechanics being balanced? Is balance in of itself a game mechanic?
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 122Member ✭✭✭
    Here's an example: I may swing my sword in Achaea and then it's 2.3 seconds until I can do that again, where I've regained my balance.
  • HailfireHailfire Posts: 25Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Didn't mean to post again, but I want to provide @Bandus a quick helping hand:

    An Alias = Setting up your game client so it interpets a shorter input as a much longer one, for example:

    AT -> Attack.

    This is used to speed up manual input whilst playing and is a tool available to everyone.
    A Macro = Setting up your game client so it interprets a short input as a sequence of commands. For example:

    AF -> Attack -> Flee.

    Again, this is available to everyone and is just a tool to enhance the accuracy of manual reaction times when it is easy to make mistakes under pressure.

    Macros and aliases are a seperate issue from automation scripts and just help people manually enter commands quickly and accurately under pressure (like trying to settup your next attack inside the 2.3 second window available to you). Everyone has access to these and people using them are still actively playing the game, unlike those using automation scripts. Hope this helps!

    Bandus
  • BandusBandus Posts: 42Member ✭✭
    I agree @Hailfire, that is an important distinction. While I have been using broad strokes and lumping them all in together, I am definitely more concerned with automated scripting than I am with macros or aliases.
    Hailfire
  • MaximusMaximus Posts: 3Member
    I think this question comes up a lot in Achaea and is defended pretty evenly by both sides. In Achaea, I think with basic aliases and using the server-side queueing features it has been proven that taking the time to practice your class's skills and kill methods can compete with if not outright defeat most fully automated oponents. Fully automated offense requires less practice but is not adaptable on the fly in most cases and is not necessary at higher tiers of combat. If you practice with your class until you can pull off all of your kill methods without making mistakes then you have the advatage of being able to adapt instantaneously to any oponent, even new ones. Automated offenses, however, are much more difficult to adapt to new oponents or new tricks.

    Achaea was not designed with the idea of balancing automation and manual offenses but has still established a pretty reasonable balance between the effectiveness and feasibility of both and I have full confidence in the admin here to create an even more balanced system of combat.
    Traveler
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Only people who don't actually code, or understand how coding works, say that coding isn't adaptable on the fly. The functions are set in stone by hand, but you can easily make quick tweaks to your raw code during lulls in the combat, and even mid-fight you can have as wide of an array of aliases as you want to cover every variable you can think of.

    Only the weakest systems are unadaptable and static. A good system lets you, the coder, dictate how it functions, on the fly. As a very basic example: My attack keybind will automatically raze shield and rebounding if it's up, otherwise attack a chosen limb, using speed or precision, and with the next venom in the venom queue. At any point in time, I can type in aliases that, for the next attack, can change the limb being attacked, change the focus on speed or precision, and even shift other venoms down in the queue to prioritize other ones. The entire attack routine happens automatically -- if shield or rebounding then raze, else use this attack -- but I can choose which attacks to use, and what modifiers to use for the attacks.

    I see a lot of people argue that you don't 'need' to use a system, that it's not 'necessary'. This is true for most people, but need is irrelevant to what a person wants to do. The Olympic-level sprinter wants to train his legs to propel him as fast as possible, and the genius inventor wants to build his own ultra-efficient bicycle to ride. Both are allowed, and both are good choices. The problem lies in the stigma against one side, brought on by the belief of many people that having physical dexterity and quick reflexes are the only valid way to play the game, or that it deserves more respect than people who don't have those physical abilites. Is that belief justified?
  • SairysSairys Posts: 117Member ✭✭✭
    Maybe to bring some examples up...

    for those that haven't seen, this is nexus (by default, this character shouldn't have had any modifications to their profile)



    The buttons along the bottom are tied into the tab targeting that the client uses which goes through the list on the right.

    The buttons are also pretty straight forward to modify and there's a guide on how to set them up.
    Similarly. there are guides on how to set up triggers that highlight certain things to make the combat spam more readable.


    With this as a base, you can choose to manually enter things, but I think it's pretty decently close to what people could use actual automation for.

    If people choose not to use those options then yeah, they'll increase the difficulty they face.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
  • BaedundarielBaedundariel Posts: 60Member ✭✭
    According to my research, they don't allow motor cycles or suped up electric wheelchair chairs in Olympic track events. 
    Ataniiq
    Hailfire
  • SairysSairys Posts: 117Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    According to my research, they don't allow motor cycles or suped up electric wheelchair chairs in Olympic track events. 
    I mean, you don't need to supe up a wheel chair depending on the length of the race (from what I've heard records for distance races above 400m tend to be held by a wheel chair athlete).

    But really scripting your input to the game doesn't necessarily make you faster as you're still subject to balance/gcd.

    If being able to react at a certain speed was a sign of automation then it would be a relatively simple matter to determine who is and isn't doing so. Similarly, balance times could be lengthened to account for this.
    Avatar by berserkerelf!
    BaedundarielArcher
  • DevinaDevina Posts: 23Member ✭✭
    I don't code. I can write simple aliases to make sending stuff easier, but as a whole, I cannot code. With that said:

    I don't mind things like aliases, auto-sippers and various triggers to make things a bit easier on life. I know it can be annoying to type out a long string of text (especially if you're like me, and forget the commands easily). What I do consider "bad" is when someone has an entire arsenal of one-hit macros that do everything for them in things like combat.

    It's only skill if you take the time and effort to type those aliases yourself.
    HailfireBaedundariel
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