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The State of PK (and a couple other questions)

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  • BaedundarielBaedundariel Posts: 60Member ✭✭
    Dodger said:
    I'm not a fan of combat systems, scripts, triggers, etc.  Would rather read and do the work myself.  Slower combat text would be a good thing for types like me. Or even a seperate text window for combat. Can't exactly ban systems unless Starmourn was only playable in a locked IRE client. I don't think my thoughts and ideas are very popular.  :anguished:
    IRE games have always been high-octane and fast-paced and people who play them learn to type quick and read even quicker. There's no gear barrier and even the people that spend hundreds of dollars on artifacts can be beaten by an unartifacted person that's more skilled than them. It's all about the player's skill and the ability to quickly and effectively collect and use information presented to you, and that's what makes IRE's balance and momentum-based combat better than, say, dice-based, stat-based, or turn-based combat.

    Coding a system that helps collect that information, present it to you in a manner you can quickly and reflexively reference, and then streamline your input so that you can send commands faster and more accurately—this can make an already good player even better, and is a significant representation and effect of personal technical skill.

    It's true that people without skill or coding capability can use other people's code—I started out using a friend's system that they coded for me. But until I learned to do it myself and created my own system that used my own input to send my own commands to the game, I would never be as effective as everyone else that did such a thing. It's like wearing a suit that isn't fitted for you: you're going to have a hard time walking around in it, and someone with a tailor-fitted suit they had designed themselves will be much more comfortable and more capable of getting around.

    When you yourself code a combat system in IRE games, you are doing the work yourself. The only difference between you physically typing the commands out each time and you writing a script that types the commands out for you is that one of them just plain works better. Either way, you're the one that's inputting the commands, just in a faster and more efficient manner—and the player that is faster and more efficient will win every time.

    In any case, you can code separate windows for inputs in clients like Mudlet, so that's no big hassle either.
    Yeah I see that and understand.  Just wish the playing field was better suited for people without a coding background and without a desire or the time to learn coding to really get a full experience for MUDs.  I feel like that may appeal to a wider variant of gamers?

    My first experience in Achaea was mind blowing when I learned of the depth of the game and experienced the beautiful immersion the other players created for me as a newcomer. At first I couldn't differentiate between who was a player and who was an NPC.. What intimidated me eventually was the scripting/coding.  At that time in my life I was in college/sports and didn't have the time.  Now thankfully I have the time, but I left the realm for 250ish years.
    Ataniiq
    DevinaHailfireDPierre
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Hey, I had absolutely no coding aptitude when I started, but what I did was take apart my friend's system and figured out how it worked—how to write functions, if-then statements, and so on. Eventually I had built my own aff tracker, limb counter, and such things on the bones of what my friend taught me. 

    Barriers can be broken, but you'll never break them if you don't try. Don't be content with "just enough". It helps if you have someone else to work with and aren't doing it alone, so don't be afraid to get that help if you need it.

    "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither." —C. S. Lewis 
  • BaedundarielBaedundariel Posts: 60Member ✭✭
    Dodger said:
    Hey, I had absolutely no coding aptitude when I started, but what I did was take apart my friend's system and figured out how it worked—how to write functions, if-then statements, and so on. Eventually I had built my own aff tracker, limb counter, and such things on the bones of what my friend taught me. It helps if you have someone else to work with and aren't doing it alone.

    Barriers can be broken, but you'll never break them if you don't try.
    Totally agree friend. 
    Ataniiq
  • IarriIarri Posts: 7Member
    Is the plan to have less classes as well? I have always found (in Lusternia) that the sheer number of classes, while they share things, tends to obfuscate stuff, because you have all the flavor text stuff. I mean, even monks from different cities, with different weapons and different afflictions were hard to keep track of. 

    ScathainDPierre
  • AntidasAntidas Posts: 12Member
    Dodger said:
    Open alpha weekend would be so, so awesome.
    Will second this opinion. I've refrained from posting because, while I have my preferences on class/race so far, its hard to tell everyone that I'm definitely gonna be one thing or the other without actually trying them first. Would love the opportunity to play around with a few of the classes on a temporary character before starting a serious one when the game comes out.
    DodgerSyajaArsentar
  • ScathainScathain Posts: 27Member
    I'd generally prefer a reasonable number of classes, with some way to later specialize in one thing or another (essentially the MKO method) as opposed to a myriad number of classes.
    DodgerIndiDevina
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Scathain said:
    I'd generally prefer a reasonable number of classes, with some way to later specialize in one thing or another (essentially the MKO method) as opposed to a myriad number of classes.
    Pretty much. Like how SWTOR has a couple classes and then they specialize one way or the other (Jedi Consular becoming a force-wielding Sage, or a stealthy Shadow.) Maybe you could get a Scoundrel who either goes for "gun kata" combat, does trick shots for long range support, or packs a shotgun Captain Reynolds style in addition to his PIECE. For close encounters.

    I'd personally love to get a "soldier" type class. Medium heavy armor, an assault rifle or heavy blaster, and, of course, a rocket launcher, for when you absolutely, positively have to kill every motherfucker in the room.
    Devina
  • uric17uric17 Posts: 25Member
    Aurelius said:
    Iarri said:
    Is the plan to have less classes as well? I have always found (in Lusternia) that the sheer number of classes, while they share things, tends to obfuscate stuff, because you have all the flavor text stuff. I mean, even monks from different cities, with different weapons and different afflictions were hard to keep track of. 

    Well, the plan is to have five classes at launch, because that's all we can manage. If we could have 15, we'd have 15. :)
     will there be huge lore to every class like in achaea? cause for me it was really fun to read
    There's too much blood in my caffeine system
    Baedundariel
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    So @Tecton said that there was an "opt-in" PK system. Are we talking in the style of the other IRE muds, or "PVP flags" where you just can't attack people unless they turn PVP on? Being able to theoretically attack anyone at any time was a big thing for me for Achaea and the other games, which made it more "real" and stopped people from just, say, running their mouths with no chance of retribution. Is this gonna be the case in Starmourn?
    WilmerQitorienHailfire
  • WilmerWilmer Posts: 23Member
    I'm in complete agreement with the above.  I also think that Opt-in pk can remove some of the thrill and realism of the moment.  It is also a game changer in regards to bashing, questing, and the like.  So, I would hope that such a device is implemented in a limited fashion.  Clearly there are times when it might be a nice feature for some players, me personally, I prefer risk.
    Pedagogical rumors of rumors fuel the cosmos
     
    BaedundarielQitorien
  • QitorienQitorien Posts: 126Member ✭✭✭
    Wilmer said:
    I'm in complete agreement with the above.  I also think that Opt-in pk can remove some of the thrill and realism of the moment.  It is also a game changer in regards to bashing, questing, and the like.  So, I would hope that such a device is implemented in a limited fashion.  Clearly there are times when it might be a nice feature for some players, me personally, I prefer risk.
    I agree with @Wilmer and @Dodger in hoping opt-in PK is not overdone for all the reasons already stated. Verbal conflict, while not mechanical (unless that IS a thing in Starmourn :D ), is still conflict. While it can be met with a non-mechanical response, it's nice to have more mechanical options.
    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN

    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates

    BaedundarielDodger
  • HailfireHailfire Posts: 25Member ✭✭
    Starmourn will be my first IRE MUD and I am very much looking forwards to it. The one recurring dampner on this excitement however is that I hear people are going around coding systems to simplify combat for themselves by means outside of the game. In any other MUD I have played that would be considered outright cheating and whilst I suppose on this game anyone can do it (unless I have misunderstood) I have no desire to spend my time learning how to code for what is supposed to be a game.

    Have I just misunderstood somehow? Or is this really a thing?
    Bandus
  • VillanoxVillanox Posts: 57Member ✭✭
    Hailfire said:
    Starmourn will be my first IRE MUD and I am very much looking forwards to it. The one recurring dampner on this excitement however is that I hear people are going around coding systems to simplify combat for themselves by means outside of the game. In any other MUD I have played that would be considered outright cheating and whilst I suppose on this game anyone can do it (unless I have misunderstood) I have no desire to spend my time learning how to code for what is supposed to be a game.

    Have I just misunderstood somehow? Or is this really a thing?
    It is a thing in many IRE games that people do, however I believe they said it would not be necessary for Starmourn
    Qitorien
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    As someone who coded up a few aliases in Achaea and fought with those, it was possible to fight without coding. And it seems they are simplifying that bit of combat here while still working on making it complex to master, which is extremely promising. 

    Qitorien
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    Hailfire said:
    Starmourn will be my first IRE MUD and I am very much looking forwards to it. The one recurring dampner on this excitement however is that I hear people are going around coding systems to simplify combat for themselves by means outside of the game. In any other MUD I have played that would be considered outright cheating and whilst I suppose on this game anyone can do it (unless I have misunderstood) I have no desire to spend my time learning how to code for what is supposed to be a game.

    Have I just misunderstood somehow? Or is this really a thing?
    There's no rules against it in IRE games, and in fact it's almost a necessity due to the fast-paced combat of the game. When you deliver multiple afflictions per second, and have to track which ones you have, which ones the enemy has, and what they cure and get from passive and active sources—there are so many variables that you would be foolish to try and do everything manually. All of the current IRE games actually have built-in server-side curing systems now (and Starmourn has a sort of that thing with wetwiring) simply because automating the defensive side of combat was completely mandatory.

    I understand there's a stigma against coding/scripting for people outside IRE, but it's not a big deal here, it's not difficult to do here, and learning how to program in Lua actually gives you a marketable skill, so it's good practice and educational for those with the willpower and courage to do so. In fact, there are a couple people who are now lead programmers/developers for IRE that got their practice and knowledge through learning how to code in order to PK. Makarios in Achaea, for example, was a top-tier PKer in three out of four, and undoubtedly it was his ability to code that landed him the job.

    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
  • HailfireHailfire Posts: 25Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Dodger said:
    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
    Why would you not want people coding in a game where not everyone has that ability or the time? To ensure a level, fair and fun playing field for all the players.

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    BaedundarielBandus
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Hailfire said:
    Dodger said:
    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
    Why would you not want people coding in a game where not everyone has that ability or the time? To ensure a level, fair and fun playing field for all the players.

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    They have stated (again, I forget who) that the point of entry will be lower than say, in Achaea. Easy to get into, difficult to master, or something along those lines. And you don't need super coding to compete against a good range of players in Achaea. Far more important is an understanding of how your skills work, how your opponent's skills work, and the ability to react quickly. Aliases sufficed for me, and I had a few lines triggered to display important bits, but none of my combat was automatic. I didn't compete, I just dabbled, but I had a good amount of fun doing so.
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Hailfire said:
    Dodger said:
    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
    Why would you not want people coding in a game where not everyone has that ability or the time? To ensure a level, fair and fun playing field for all the players.

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    If you want a level, fair, and fun playing field for all the players, what about players that don't have the physical and mental ability to read and process the enormous amount of information on your screen manually? Is it not fair for someone who isn't a fast reader to code a script that displays important information without having to read and remember every single thing? Is it not fair for someone who isn't a fast typer to create functions that automatically choose which afflictions to give when balance is recovered? Or do you think that being a fast reader and a fast typer should an absolute necessity to play the game at a competitive level?

    Encouraging everyone to rely on twitch-based skill alone is unfair to people who don't have that twitch-based skill, but do have the technical knowledge and coding proficiency to create scripts that put them on the level of people who can play the game manually.

    Saying that using a system or automating your offense isn't based on 'skill' is unfair. A coder requires a sufficient amount of skill in programming to create the system, and a deep understanding of how the PVP mechanics actually work in order to make it effective. Unlike aimbots in FPS games, there is no such thing as someone not knowing how the game works but coding a system to be better than everyone else. The fear of an average nobody suddenly becoming a god from buying a good system without knowing how it works is completely unfounded. Using a system still requires an understanding of how PVP works, and creating a system to use for yourself requires even more.

    The only difference between coding and manualing is that manualers type the commands into the prompt, and coders type the commands into the scripting window. One of these takes reflexes and improvisational thinking; the other takes forethought and planning. Both can be equally effective with enough skill and knowledge in either discipline. So why is one way of playing the game good and the other bad?
    Arsentar
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Syaja said:
    Hailfire said:
    Dodger said:
    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
    Why would you not want people coding in a game where not everyone has that ability or the time? To ensure a level, fair and fun playing field for all the players.

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    They have stated (again, I forget who) that the point of entry will be lower than say, in Achaea. Easy to get into, difficult to master, or something along those lines. And you don't need super coding to compete against a good range of players in Achaea. Far more important is an understanding of how your skills work, how your opponent's skills work, and the ability to react quickly. Aliases sufficed for me, and I had a few lines triggered to display important bits, but none of my combat was automatic. I didn't compete, I just dabbled, but I had a good amount of fun doing so.
    Usain Bolt can probably run faster than you, but that's why you're riding a bike. And even if he gets his own bike, you can still beat him in a race if you've custom-tuned your bike to be as fast and efficient as possible, and you're intimately familiar with the way bikes operate and handle.

    Coding provides equity for people who are less physically capable but still talented in other areas to be competitive on the playing field, and it provides only minimal benefits to those who are already able to perform well without it and are used to doing so. It's good to see that the systemic barrier is being lowered, though, while still allowing people with both intuitive skill and coding discipline to excel in their chosen playstyles.
    Syaja
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    @Dodger - It's also important to note that people may enjoy combat without wanting to be a top tier combatant. Also, I remember someone offering me an automated offense where the decisions were made for me and I think that loses the fun. Sure, you may be able to code that, but there's something to be said for knowing when to use one attack or another, or go for one affliction over another of your own volition. 

    Lowering the barrier is good, because for those people who have no coding experience or a desire to really code, it'll give a playing field that may not be the same field top combatants use but it doesn't have to be?
  • JeromJerom Posts: 33Member
    Hailfire said:
    Dodger said:
    The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to code or use systems to PK in IRE MUDs. But why would you want to run on foot in a bicycle race?
    Why would you not want people coding in a game where not everyone has that ability or the time? To ensure a level, fair and fun playing field for all the players.

    There's a reason they don't allow aimbots in a FPS game, it's not fair and it detracts from the spirit of competition based on in-game skill.
    If it makes you feel better, in most IRE games, there are people who sell their systems for credits, sometimes they even give it for free (although the latter is fairly rare).
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    Tecton said:
    Some of our goals with our combat system:
    • Easy to learn, harder to master.
    • No massive need for scripts
    • Being able to distill what's happening down to basic information easily
    • No single kill path, many classes have multiple kill routes to pursue
    I'm sure we'll do a more detailed information release in the future about it (or do an open alpha weekend where you can try it yourself), so I'm not going to go into a lot of detail right now. 
    Just reiterating this point here...
    Qitorien
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Syaja said:
    @Dodger - It's also important to note that people may enjoy combat without wanting to be a top tier combatant. Also, I remember someone offering me an automated offense where the decisions were made for me and I think that loses the fun. Sure, you may be able to code that, but there's something to be said for knowing when to use one attack or another, or go for one affliction over another of your own volition. 

    Lowering the barrier is good, because for those people who have no coding experience or a desire to really code, it'll give a playing field that may not be the same field top combatants use but it doesn't have to be?
    A good affliction queue lets you shift the priorities of the affs used around—raising their position in the table, so that you'll attack with your chosen selections next, or maybe you can choose to attack with a specific affliction after the enemy already has these afflictions applied. PK isn't static, and systems that are designed to be static will fail in the face of systems where you have the full range of choices in your offense, just as the player typing "dsl Dodger curare aconite" over and over will fail to kill me. (Meanwhile, I can type "naf curare" and then press my keybind that runs a function I wrote to apply the affs I specified when I wrote it in addition to the one I want at that moment.)

    If you code your system yourself, you are making the decisions in your offense yourself. If you type the command into the keyboard Whether you're calling a function or typing into a keyboard, you are telling the computer what input you want to send. Whether you're running on the track or pedaling a bike, you're still going forward under your own power. The difference lies only in which muscles you use.
  • SyajaSyaja Posts: 118Member ✭✭✭
    I'm not at all arguing against coding. It's something I wouldn't mind teaching myself to do using a game as the basis for learning. But! I am arguing that you don't necessarily need to come up with a massive amount of scripts to fight, even in Achaea. It depends on your goals when it comes to combat. You can especially assist in group combat with a couple triggers, highlights, and aliases. And I just don't want anyone to get discouraged from trying out a game because they think that to participate in something you have to code, when you don't. That's all. There's definitely benefits to it.
  • DodgerDodger Posts: 54Member ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    You don't need to be able to code to PK. But you do need to first know how PK works. Start with the knowledge, and then you can either learn to code, or learn to type fast. If you can do one of those things already, great! You don't need to code, and you don't need to read, think and type at lightning speed, but being able to do one or the other is good and being able to do both could be even better.

    Just like an MMO class can specialze in using different techniques to get the advantage over his opponents, so too can the MMO player. There's no shame or stigma in doing so either way, nor is doing it one way or the other an absolute necessity anymore.
    Syaja
  • QitorienQitorien Posts: 126Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Nvm, I was too slow when I got distracted by work. Sorry ;;
    As T'rath has pierced the veil, so will I, and so will my life become complete in a good death.
    Jin
    VOTE FOR STARMOURN

    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates

    SyajaBaedundariel
  • bairlochbairloch Posts: 105Member ✭✭✭
    Call me a carebear. A big, wooden, mossy carebear, but I prefer opt-in. I am not a big pvper, but I am a big explorer. Knowing that I can explore without being ganked for the lulz is a lovely, warm, security blanket that I can wrap around myself.
    That said, they did also say there would be lawless space. So I would not expect to have my blankie there.
    SyajaBandusannys
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